Author Topic: CD Player (Read 177537 times)

H a n $ · « **Reply #870 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 11:44 AM »

Quote from: JojoD818 on Sep 30, 2004 at 11:35 PM

Jojo's tip:

The best approach in upgrading "any audio electronics" is to study the circuit, learn how it works, why it sounds like that, which part or parts dictates sonics. Gentlemen (any ladies?), the best weapon in this hobby is knowledge.

Common practice of diyers here is to change opamps, caps, bypass caps etc, and then you end up changing everything. Some websites even change the main supply caps because "1000uf lang?!? eh" let's change it to 4,700uf. Then what? Do you gain anything? Have you even considered the PSRR? Refining ripple won't give you any improvement if the PSRR is way beyond specs. That just won't cut it.

As an example, take an opamp specifically designed for audio then use it and exploit it, push it to it's limits, squeeze the darn thing until it sounds good, find the best possible configuration for it to sound it's best. Remember, an opamp works because of resistance in it's feedback, without it, an opamp behaves like a piece of wire with a gain of 1! Too much of it and you approach it's open loop gain and you lose bandwidth.

Study how the circuit works and exploit it!

HTH,
JojoD

Approved!! Masta Doc JOJOd.. galing mo magopera!!

JojoD818 · « **Reply #871 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 11:56 AM »

Guys,

Thanks for all the praises. Just want to help others decide where to start.

wanderlust and sandawa,

I'll try to keep this a non-profit organization for the time being but thank you very much for the offer to help.

JojoD818 · « **Reply #872 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 11:59 AM »

Quote from: j_albert22 on Oct 01, 2004 at 12:57 AM

galing talaga ni master JJ pwede ka bang magconduct nang lecture

basta solid state and over gulaman pwede.

kunyari ka pa eh ang galing-galing mo sa kalikot!

kimpao · « **Reply #873 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 12:18 PM »

Quote from: odyopayl on Sep 27, 2004 at 05:27 PM

Most of the high-end electronic gears have premium parts, ang kagandahan especially if you are DIY'er step-by-step nakikita mo improvements, unlike surplus you always start with the scratch (Pag ayaw mo tunog dispose mo wala ka na reference)....hehehe! Fish tayo mga sir!
Seriously mga sir ganun talaga you need to replace cheap parts lang naman. I am not anti-surplus the truth i have one. pinakamaganda sa lahat kung saan ka maligaya!

but how come most attendees in the initial cdp shootout had these results :

1. Exposure 2010
2. Rotel 1070
3. Sony and Denon 1015 (surplus and not tweaked, just don't know the exact model of the sony but i think this was a mid entry model the Denon was the top of the line model back then)

does this mean that both have cheap parts? I'm not really a "DIY electronics buff", for me IMHO, my take here is how the parts were implemented, whether it being cheap or boutique parts, in the circuit which somehow means more logical than simply just "slapping-in" boutique parts in a stock circuit.

Quote from: JojoD818 on Sep 30, 2004 at 11:35 PM

Jojo's tip:

The best approach in upgrading "any audio electronics" is to study the circuit, learn how it works, why it sounds like that, which part or parts dictates sonics. Gentlemen (any ladies?), the best weapon in this hobby is knowledge.

Common practice of diyers here is to change opamps, caps, bypass caps etc, and then you end up changing everything. Some websites even change the main supply caps because "1000uf lang?!? eh" let's change it to 4,700uf. Then what? Do you gain anything? Have you even considered the PSRR? Refining ripple won't give you any improvement if the PSRR is way beyond specs. That just won't cut it.

As an example, take an opamp specifically designed for audio then use it and exploit it, push it to it's limits, squeeze the darn thing until it sounds good, find the best possible configuration for it to sound it's best. Remember, an opamp works because of resistance in it's feedback, without it, an opamp behaves like a piece of wire with a gain of 1! Too much of it and you approach it's open loop gain and you lose bandwidth.

Study how the circuit works and exploit it!

HTH,
JojoD

I find this very logical and abundant in sense

Quote from: JojoD818 on Sep 30, 2004 at 11:17 PM

Just curious, kung hi-end na cdp mo, bakit kailangan mo pa i-upgrade yun parts? Diba naisip nun designer na hi-end yun design so dapat premium yun parts? Besides, as a diyer, I am not impressed with some of the hi-end cdps that we have opened either. Others have premium parts, while others don't.

Anyway, baka humaba pa. Like you, I don't see anything wrong with brand new or surplus, yun nga lang yun surplus mas mura.

Cheers!

shoot out uli!!!.........shoot out uli!!!.........shoot out uli!!!.........shoot out uli!!!.........shoot out uli!!!.........shoot out uli!!!.........

Quote from: slayer on Sep 30, 2004 at 10:12 AM

Master Odyopayl,

Sana na AB natin sa 971 and 02. 02 being at par with the Usher in terms of price...

A classic example; stock RCD971 and a tweaked RCD02. both yielded almost the same results were the 971 was favorble above the 02 with just a slight difference. price point, the 02 is priced much higher than the 971 and that the 971 was an older model. my point here is that one needs to understand the whole circuit and how it was implement and what parts only needs to be replaced. Am I making sense here, or not?

john5479 · « **Reply #874 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 12:25 PM »

if the circuit is basically good, kahit hindi botique parts, ok na sound nyan. Changing to botique parts would only enhance it. But if the circuit is flawed, then botique parts just wont do.

odyopayl · « **Reply #875 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 01:12 PM »

but how come most attendees in the initial cdp shootout had these results :

1. Exposure 2010
2. Rotel 1070
3. Sony and Denon 1015
(surplus and not tweaked, just don't know the exact model of the sony but i think this was a mid entry model the Denon was the top of the line model back then)

does this mean that both have cheap parts? I'm not really a "DIY electronics buff", for me IMHO, my take here is how the parts were implemented, whether it being cheap or boutique parts, in the circuit which somehow means more logical than simply just "slapping-in" boutique parts in a stock circuit.

Hahaha what is this? I'm not talking about surplus players have cheap parts! We're talking about "Tweak". It doesn't matter if your CD player is a surpluss or Flagship model what we are talking about is what we need replace in order get the best on our CD players, I bet even your CD players still have room for improvement.

Just curious, kung hi-end na cdp mo, bakit kailangan mo pa i-upgrade yun parts? Diba naisip nun designer na hi-end yun design so dapat premium yun parts?

- High-end? need to be specific? What is high-end for me might night high-end for the others. (Example: my high-end DAC for me is DCS Elgar Ring or Krell CD transport just an example (IMO)
Me too..i don't see anything wrong with the Surplus & Brandnew player, but I can see & hear difference, Fish tayo sir JojoD

A classic example; stock RCD971 and a tweaked RCD02. both yielded almost the same results were the 971 was favorble above the 02 with just a slight difference. price point, the 02 is priced much higher than the 971 and that the 971 was an older model. my point here is that one needs to understand the whole circuit and how it was implement and what parts only needs to be replaced. Am I making sense here, or not?

- You're right,I agree but DIY is also a sort of experiment not all tweak (Can I call it tweak?) might result positive results. But the essense of being a DIY'er is learning and the fulfillment it brings to you once you succeed right Mr. Jojo?

if the circuit is basically good, kahit hindi botique parts, ok na sound nyan. Changing to botique parts would only enhance it
- You're bsolutely correct sir John but that's very General!

As what I have said, Good sound is a matter of individual preference, what is good for me might not good for you. A surpluss or a brandnew CD player is your choice, again kung saan ka masaya!

wanderlust · « **Reply #876 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 01:18 PM »

if only i am learnt in the ways of the DIYers.... i however find the arguments raised very enlightining, wish i could put into practice what i am learning....

kaya lang naka masira ko lang! wag na, pagawa n lang ako kay maste j!

shoot out uli!!!.........shoot out uli!!!.........shoot out uli!!!.........shoot out uli!!!.........shoot out uli!!!.........shoot out uli!!!.........

H a n $ · « **Reply #877 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 01:25 PM »

Guys,

Surplus cdp are a bunch of old models units from entry to high end level its up to you to decide and choose your brand/model.. kaya when scouting for surplus cdp i make sure that i get the highest model possible i always ask them to open the player to check the condition of the parts if its boutique parts or not syempre yun condition whole unit.. pero since old this doesn't mean pangit sound like the Sony 701ES top of the line model pangit sound.. I doubt!!

H a n $ · « **Reply #878 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 01:32 PM »

Quote from: odyopayl on Sep 27, 2004 at 05:27 PM

Most of the high-end electronic gears have premium parts, ang kagandahan especially if you are DIY'er step-by-step nakikita mo improvements, unlike surplus you always start with the scratch (Pag ayaw mo tunog dispose mo wala ka na reference)....hehehe! Fish tayo mga sir!
Seriously mga sir ganun talaga you need to replace cheap parts lang naman. I am not anti-surplus the truth i have one. pinakamaganda sa lahat kung saan ka maligaya!

Pre meron Top of the line SURPLUS cdp.. flagship model walang premium parts..

I doubt!! bossing

s2kov · « **Reply #879 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 01:34 PM »

SHOOT OUT

[/color]

H a n $ · « **Reply #880 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 01:39 PM »

Quote from: s2kov on Oct 01, 2004 at 01:34 PM

SHOOT OUT [/color]

A Y A W KO NA!! hehehehe

[/color]

odyopayl · « **Reply #881 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 02:10 PM »

Quote from: hans adriane on Oct 01, 2004 at 01:32 PM

Pre meron Top of the line SURPLUS cdp.. flagship model walang premium parts..

I doubt!! bossing

Ganun ba? But don't limit premium parts to Capacitors & DAC's...Yub I doubt na walang premium parts 'yung flagship model na yan....hehehe fish Sir Hans!

JojoD818 · « **Reply #882 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 02:14 PM »

Quote from: odyopayl on Oct 01, 2004 at 01:12 PM

- High-end? need to be specific? What is high-end for me might night high-end for the others. (Example: my high-end DAC for me is DCS Elgar Ring or Krell CD transport just an example (IMO)
Me too..i don't see anything wrong with the Surplus & Brandnew player, but I can see & hear difference, Fish tayo sir JojoD

A classic example; stock RCD971 and a tweaked RCD02. both yielded almost the same results were the 971 was favorble above the 02 with just a slight difference. price point, the 02 is priced much higher than the 971 and that the 971 was an older model. my point here is that one needs to understand the whole circuit and how it was implement and what parts only needs to be replaced. Am I making sense here, or not?

- You're right,I agree but DIY is also a sort of experiment not all tweak (Can I call it tweak?) might result positive results. But the essense of being a DIY'er is learning and the fulfillment it brings to you once you succeed right Mr. Jojo?

Sir,

We (you and I) are not arguing, we are just clarifying. Kaya fish talaga tayo dyan.

In some ways I agree with the tweak being an experiment, yes, it is an intelligent guess, a hypothesis if you may but it must be backed-up with science and math, in order to end up with a starting point. This is one of the rare moments when the "end" meets "start".

Happy DIYing,
JojoD

wanderlust · « **Reply #883 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 02:45 PM »

premuims parts or not:

SHOOT-OUT PA RIN KATAPAT NYAN!!!

[/size]

magka alaman na. ahihihi.

audi0slave · « **Reply #884 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 02:49 PM »

Quote from: JojoD818 on Sep 30, 2004 at 11:17 PM

Just curious, kung hi-end na cdp mo, bakit kailangan mo pa i-upgrade yun parts? Diba naisip nun designer na hi-end yun design so dapat premium yun parts? Besides, as a diyer, I am not impressed with some of the hi-end cdps that we have opened either. Others have premium parts, while others don't.

Cheers!

o nga naman odyopayl.... bakit kelangan pa ng upgrade upgrade na yan.... he he he!! kaya yung NAD ko, it will remain stock as long as I'm its owner.... he he he

o pag-usapan naman natin.... analog o digital.... sa digital ako.... umpisa kayo thread, discussion tayo...

JojoD818 · « **Reply #885 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 02:52 PM »

Quote from: wanderlust on Oct 01, 2004 at 02:45 PM

premuims parts or not:

SHOOT-OUT PA RIN KATAPAT NYAN!!! [/size]

magka alaman na. ahihihi.

Uy exciting yan, para na naman tayo nasa store ng audio gears! Iba-ibang models meron!

audi0slave · « **Reply #886 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 02:56 PM »

Quote from: sandawa on Oct 01, 2004 at 08:45 AM

this is OT, but i hope you put up your own audio company. babakas ako sa equity. palagay ko maraming gusto ring sumali dito. tapos ipa-lista natin sa stock exchange, IPO agad para times 10 ang pera natin in one year. keep on sharing your knowledge on how to improve the sound of our CDPs, bihira ang taong tulad mo master!

kayo lang hinihintay ko, tagal ko ng nag-suggest magtayo tayo ng cooperative. ano sa tingin nyo? at least 15 cooperators lang mapaparehistro na natin sa Cooperative Development Authority yung coop natin.

JojoD818 · « **Reply #887 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 03:06 PM »

Jojo's Tip #2:

Most of you have your itching DIY hands targeting those main rectifiers, right? The first thing on your mind is to say.... let's buy the ultra fastest recovery diode we can find and replace those at once! Yeah right.

Do you notice those caps shunted at the diodes? Those are snubber caps and guess what, most "hi-end" cdp that I have had the pleasure of opening do have snubbers but just low value caps across the diodes. What in the world were the designers thinking??? Didn't they learned in dc circuits that snubbers work better when returned to source with a low impedance path? Duh!?!

Here's a trick, shunted caps across rectifier diodes work better in damping oscillatory rectifier circuits when in series with a low value resistor.

So what are you waiting for numbnuts??? Study and do your homework!!!

PS. Donot PM me asking what value to use, you find it yourself! Otherwise, I'll be learning the whole thing all over again when you should be the one learning!

JojoD818 · « **Reply #888 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 03:08 PM »

Quote from: audi0slave on Oct 01, 2004 at 02:56 PM

kayo lang hinihintay ko, tagal ko ng nag-suggest magtayo tayo ng cooperative. ano sa tingin nyo? at least 15 cooperators lang mapaparehistro na natin sa Cooperative Development Authority yung coop natin.

Sir mukhang topic yan next session, whenever that may be.

akyatbundok · « **Reply #889 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 03:17 PM »

pre pag tweak mo ng CDP dapat may signature badge ka din ala "KI Signature" ni Ken Ishiwata ng marantz:

wanderlust · « **Reply #890 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 03:19 PM »

sir jo u have pm.

kimpao · « **Reply #891 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 04:07 PM »

Quote from: audi0slave on Oct 01, 2004 at 02:49 PM

o pag-usapan naman natin.... analog o digital.... sa digital ako.... umpisa kayo thread, discussion tayo...

sir pwede ba sa parehong panig ako. ahehehehehehe........ atty, bukas ka na ng panibagong topic!

H a n $ · « **Reply #892 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 05:30 PM »

Quote from: wanderlust on Oct 01, 2004 at 02:45 PM

premuims parts or not:

SHOOT-OUT PA RIN KATAPAT NYAN!!! [/size]

magka alaman na. ahihihi.

Shootout/Session notice some attentively listen while others naman chika chika.. pero end of the day whether one gear surpass another or match.. yun experienced of auditioning those wonderful gears stock/ tweak/branded/generic is the BEST.. not anytime hear they side by side...

Syempre yun camaraderie..

Kaya SHOOTOUT BA ULIT??

akyatbundok · « **Reply #893 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 05:55 PM »

sirs, i think shootouts are good for finding out for yourself what are the good CDP's out there, but to put an emphasis on "for yourself", i think the results may be diffrent for each listener because we all look for different things..... some look for soundstage, some look for clarity/detail, some look for tonal balance...... some of the gear we audition are so close in sound quality that it could go either way, and the deciding factor could be what's more important to the listener, or even the accompanying music, setup or room...... that's why for me, a CDP to be truly declared a winner, should beat the competition on all counts and by an obvious margin, unanimously agreed by all listeners...... is it possible?

btw, my favorite tweak: slightly twist the volume knob clockwise.

j_albert22 · « **Reply #894 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 08:15 PM »

Quote from: kimpao on Oct 01, 2004 at 04:07 PM

sir pwede ba sa parehong panig ako. ahehehehehehe........ atty, bukas ka na ng panibagong topic!

kim u have PM

kimpao · « **Reply #895 on:** Oct 01, 2004 at 09:49 PM »

Exactly my point odyopyl. You should understand how the system works and replace parts that only need to be replaced. cdp ko sir ala na room for improvement, improved na kasi

maganda na sa akin "as is" and yaw ko pa-tweak baka maging "tweak-tweak" ang tunog. Ahehehehehehe

fish!!!!.....

j_albert22 · « **Reply #896 on:** Oct 02, 2004 at 12:07 AM »

one thing din the circuit design of every cdp is also optimize na at dumaan sa mahabang proseso testing , quality test etc...kaya di rin ako kumbisido sa mga tweak cguro minimal lang ang diperensya, kung critical listener ka okey

imho

fish po tabi tabi po

j_albert22 · « **Reply #897 on:** Oct 02, 2004 at 12:11 AM »

isa pa pag nasa bahay di ka naman nakatutok makinig like yong ginagawa pag session di ba??

at higit sa lahat bumababa yong resale value kaya tama si Attorney iba pa rin ang STOCK

pisballlllllllllllllllll bro

kimpao · « **Reply #898 on:** Oct 02, 2004 at 12:44 AM »

Quote from: akyatbundok on Oct 01, 2004 at 05:55 PM

btw, my favorite tweak: slightly twist the volume knob clockwise.

Diba dapat : "twist the volume knob clockwise until it reaches 12 o'clock".

JojoD818 · « **Reply #899 on:** Oct 02, 2004 at 12:55 AM »

Tama din naman yun pero sa akin kasi kaya ko tweak para lumabas yun gusto ko na tunog, pero sa akin lang yun.

Probably, if everybody only knew which parts to replace, or adjust, then everybody would be doing it. Kaso nga madami din na hindi mahilig humawak ng soldring iron.

The point is, not everyone knows how to do it. Example, gusto mo palabasin yun very fine highs (o minsan tawag nila air), pwede yun basta alam lang kung alin ang alin. Kaso nga hindi.