... I tell you what, I was at pchins place when he demoed prison break season 2 dvd on his oppo 983, Man its is excellent, its really like hidef. I dont think one can even tell if its hidef or sd if you dont know which is playing. ...
BD technology is superior to SD. That's a non-issue.
But in real world situations, depending on the source material and equipment, our forum's video experts are saying that the image difference between BD and SD is not that great after all.
Here's one comment from sir Moks:
I can assure you that sir Moks is no gushing newbie. This guy is a sharp-eyed enthusiast who knows what he's talking about.
At any rate, BD discs seem to be doing well commercially:
(http://www.thehdroom.com/images/news/2991.jpg)
Iron Man Blu-ray Dominates Amazon Sales
June 29, 2008
Iron Man: Special Collector's Edition on Blu-ray Disc continues to sit atop Amazon.com Blu-ray sales charts despite having yet to be formally announced by Paramount Home Entertainment.
Amazon has yet to discount Iron Man since it was first listed as an active pre-order several weeks ago, keeping the price steady at $27.95.
http://www.thehdroom.com/news/Iron_Man_Blu-ray_Dominates_Amazon_Sales/2991
hehe Sir Barrister you're putting me on the spot hehe. ;D Thanks for the compliment.
I think you can also poll those who attended the Oppo 983 shoot-out event to see their impressions of BD vs SD. Ang gagaling na nila! Parang training session kasi on how to scrutinize pq. :)
Looks like we need another shoot-out for this purpose. ;D
The experiment I tried shows how viewing distance greatly affect PQ.
With excellent equip and excellent source talaga to me diff is so small. These are my experiences
1. Prison break Season 2 on Pchins 983 as mentioned. I think the recent tv series may not be worth a hidef purchase ;D
2. Fifth element superbit/ultimate edition on 983, ps3 etc.
3. Hollow man superbit on ps3, 980..On the ps3 it is really WOW, I really thought it was hidef (at the shootout). Excellent.
4. The Rock Criterion collection on 983, xa2 - another WOW, Looks so hidef like what the others are also saying in the shootout
definitely i agree on this, i have a transformers, lotr, and many titles in hi-bit edition and you can never really tell that its only sd. so i therefore conclude that it is on the equipment and the disc which is important in great pq. (i observe it in pio DV600 upscaled to 1080p connected to 42PV70) ang galing i thought i was watching HD.
Yes, definitely another shoot-out! Specifically on SD vs BD this time.
Please post on this thread.
Remember ... it's probably going to be the first of its kind! :o 8)
Ok.
I am thinking that the simplest will be to have 2 very good SD players, say Oppo 983 and PS3. Then we can have BD30 as bluray player and A35 as HD-DVD player. We show same clip on one SD player and one HD player, and then get points. We do this maybe 4 or 6 times.
After that, we have the "Guessing game" contest. Guess if the player is SD or BD. No comparisons. Just a single 2-minute clip.
It also depends on the size of your screen. The real test will be on a big 120" screen. That's when you can most notice the difference.
Ok.
I am thinking that the simplest will be to have 2 very good SD players, say Oppo 983 and PS3. Then we can have BD30 as bluray player and A35 as HD-DVD player. We show same clip on one SD player and one HD player, and then get points. We do this maybe 4 or 6 times.
After that, we have the "Guessing game" contest. Guess if the player is SD or BD. No comparisons. Just a single 2-minute clip.
Maybe you can consult a statistician to calculate the number of participants needed for you to show that a certain player is definitely better than the other. Dami ng variables so most likely lalaki ang number of participants for the "trial" to be valid. ;D ;D ;D
celine dion bluray (played on the ps3)
starwars 720p ripped file (played on popcorn hour)
the rock sd (played on an oppo 983)
halle berry movie the title i forgot bluray source dvd9 (played on ???)
but the pq between them are quite narrow in difference, hell, even kingkong sd played well on a pioneer dv600. ibang klase kasi equipments ni sir mark.
Dami talaga variables, including distance of each judge from screen, calibration of each player, the particular film clip ... and we will try to minimize the effects of these variables.
There will always be controversy ... but my thinking is that a lot of people say that the difference between SD and BD is like night and day. If that's true, then the results should be a foregone conclusion and BD should wallop SD, especially because we will use a huge 120" screen.
Well, let's see if that will be true.
according to the HT calculator I got from Avsforum, if Mark's screen is 120inches diagonal, here are the recommended viewing distances
SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) Longest Recommended viewing distance (1) = 16.3 ft
THX Longest Recommended viewing distance (2) = 13.4 ft
The most critical variable for me personally is viewing distance.
... We tested it in my HT, using his Oppo 983. At a distance, its very hard to tell the difference. YOu have to pause the film and go close up to the screen.
Dami talaga variables, including distance of each judge from screen ...
I don't think it's the equipment because my DVD player is practically the cheapest model with upscaling features. It's the quality of the source and the distance relative to the size of the screen.
Besides the distance, i also have the reason to believe that the player should be included as a factor.Comparing my SONY BD 301 with my PIO 600 playing an SD and using HDMI, to my AX100, it seems to me that basically the SONY BD301 out shines the PIO 600, though both are upscaling to 1080p. As i observed, the SONY renders the PQ of the SD smoother making it nicer and more friendly to the eyes. What is good however to the PIO is the availability of picture adjustments which is very convenient to use.
according to the HT calculator I got from Avsforum, if Mark's screen is 120inches diagonal, here are the recommended viewing distances
SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) Longest Recommended viewing distance (1) = 16.3 ft
THX Longest Recommended viewing distance (2) = 13.4 ft
The most critical variable for me personally is viewing distance. I just upgraded to a Panasonic 1080p 50V Plasma and my "normal" viewing distance is barely 2 meters (I live in Tokyo). My daughter even sits nearer. Difference is quite big. But if I walk back to the dining area (5 meters), then it's really difficult to tell the difference depending on the source.
For hd rips, my normal viewing distance is approximately 1-2 feet from a 22 inch high contrast CRT monitor. Difference is quite big.
I don't think it's the equipment because my DVD player is practically the cheapest model with upscaling features. It's the quality of the source and the distance relative to the size of the screen.
The current viewing distance in my HT is 18 to 20 ft, depending on the seat.
I find 13.4 ft really near. Kaduling. For the BD vs SD shoot-out, I can re-arrange the chairs so that the judges are around 15 to 16 feet from the screen.
I would think that the results should therefore be valid, regardless of your screen size, provided you follow the SMPTE recommendations for viewing distance.
The current viewing distance in my HT is 18 to 20 ft, depending on the seat.
I find 13.4 ft really near. Kaduling. For the BD vs SD shoot-out, I can re-arrange the chairs so that the judges are around 15 to 16 feet from the screen.
I would think that the results should therefore be valid, regardless of your screen size, provided you follow the SMPTE recommendations for viewing distance.
But in real world situations, depending on the source material and equipment, our forum's video experts are saying that the image difference between BD and SD is not that great after all.
Sir, will the viewers eyesight condition not also factored in relative to the required distance from the screen?
I went to Mark's setup long ago & I could confirm with this observation. It was hard to see the difference. If there was, the cost is not justifiable (for me) to renew your entire DVD library.
BUT to add: the right equipment (and investment) is necessary. After seeing & comparing SD vs BD on a processor, I yearned to have a similar (but less cost) setup,thinking that I will save a lot on software. My PJ was a 720p model & I got a receiver with a good internal video scaler and even tried HTPC with an expensive video card. It didnt cut it :-\. But later I changed my PJ to a 1080p native one. It was there that I saw what I was looking for.
So dont forget to invest on the right equipment. A good 1080p display is one of em. The jaw dropping images you see at Mark's setup isnt just because of the DVDo (or a super DVDp) alone, the tandem with his awesome PJ (plus the handsome owner) also has a lot to do with the result. I wish I knew this from the start & I would've saved the money I spent to make a HTPC. :)
according to the HT calculator I got from Avsforum, if Mark's screen is 120inches diagonal, here are the recommended viewing distances
SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) Longest Recommended viewing distance (1) = 16.3 ft
THX Longest Recommended viewing distance (2) = 13.4 ft
In fact, 16.3 feet might be too close for a home setup. Luging lugi na yata ang SD, torture test na talaga.
Pero OK na rin para wala silang masabi. ;)
Sa akin, Ok na ang 16.3 feet.
THX 26-degree standard will give us a distance of 18.9 feet; THX at 36 degrees is 13.4 feet. So SMPTE's 16.3 foot distance is between THX's 2 standards, OK na yon.
In fact, 16.3 feet might be too close for a home setup. Luging lugi na yata ang SD, torture test na talaga.
Pero OK na rin para wala silang masabi. ;)
Sir, will the viewers eyesight condition not also factored in relative to the required distance from the screen?
Lugi ba attorney? Hehehe.... top notch na equipments ni Mark ah.. (and Paul's Oppo 983 too) ;D ;D
Anyway, SD really has to undergo a torture test talaga. And the only way to go about it is to set the standards. After all, we are here to see SD's best imitation of 1080p video if its at par with BD.
Yung 16.3ft, malapit rin pala sa optimal distance in viewing 1080p video. Mark's usual seating of 18-20 ft though is still in the range of distance in viewing 1080p video.
Using the carltonbale chart, for 120-inch screens, a 20-foot distance is right in the middle of the pink-shaded 1080p range. On the other hand, a 16.3-foot distance is more or less on the "Full Benefit of 1080p" red line:
http://s3.carltonbale.com/resolution_chart.html
Therefore, I don't need to re-arrange my chairs. ;D
Impressed nga ako sa mga articles and charts ni Carlton Bale. Very informative and very useful. ;)
And since we are pre-occupied with the topic of resolution on this thread.......here is an excerpt from Bale's article that I found truly eye-widening....
In conclusion: If you are a videophile with a properly setup viewing room, you should definitely be able to notice the resolution enhancement that 1080p brings. However, if you are an average consumer with a plasma on the far wall of your family room, you are not likely to be sitting close enough to notice any advantage. Check the chart above and use that to make your decision. Also, the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF) states the the most important aspects of picture quality are (in order): 1) contrast ratio, 2) color saturation, 3) color accuracy, 4) resolution. Resolution is 4th on the list and plasma is generally superior to LCD in all of the other areas (but much more prone to reflections/glare.) So pick your display size, then measure your seating distance, and then use the charts above to figure out if you would benefit from the larger screen size.
eto yung chart
(http://s3.carltonbale.com/resolution_chart.png)
Last factor lang pala resolution in terms of PQ....that according to ISF. So folks concerned with PQ...calibrate your screens!!! ;)
Sa akin, Ok na ang 16.3 feet.
THX 26-degree standard will give us a distance of 18.9 feet; THX at 36 degrees is 13.4 feet. So SMPTE's 16.3 foot distance is between THX's 2 standards, OK na yon.
In fact, 16.3 feet might be too close for a home setup. Luging lugi na yata ang SD, torture test na talaga.
Pero OK na rin para wala silang masabi. ;)
Now how about the added bonus of LOSSLESS MULTI CHANNEL SOUND that only BD can provide. As they say, the image is just 50% of the total movie experience, the other half is the SQ of the movie :D
If you are sitting at an angle of view between 30 and 36 degrees, comparing SD and BD, BD will always win except if the transfer for the BD is so terrible. Comparing reference material (Fifth element, Narnia,Hairspray, etc), SD cannot compete with BD. That being said, decreasing the viewing to less than 26 degrees the apparent superiority of BD diminishes to a point that PQ would be the same, conversely as you go greater than 36 degrees, the PQ of BD increases as you get closer to the screen.
I first felt the difference with the BD Kingdom of Heaven, switching from the standard DD and 5.1LPCM made me a believer. The soundstage is different. I am not a storyteller like you are, I just can't put into words what I felt.
For a 26 degree angle, you should be seated 18.9 feet away from a 120" screen. Since my seats are 18 to 20 feet away, I think the test should be valid. This would also be consistent with the charts of carltonbale.
Mark, I suggest that you still explore the option of following the SMPTE standard of 16.3 ft. It leaves no doubt. It leaves no questions unanswered.
Torture test talaga di ba.
From there....judges can make conclusions based on the
1. SMPTE standard, which is also close to Bale's "Full Benefit of 1080p" distance of around 16 ft.
2. Your actual seating arrangement of 18-20ft, still in the range of Bale's chart, but at the lower range of allowable distance based on screen size (26 degrees).
I wonder what are the views of the other members, particularly the OP.
:D I second sir Munskie's motion. :D
Why not use both 16.3 feet and 20 feet.
First, you get a more comprehensive shoot-out.
Second, you settle the controversy.
Di ba? ;D
A BD title beats SDs in Amazon.com "Bestsellers in Movies & TV"!With Dark Knight's theatrical opening this week, that helped a lot in boosting the sales, whether BD or SD version of Batman Begins. I think Dark Knight will be the biggest film of the year...in terms of box office sales.
Batman Begins
Blu-ray No. 1 movie title at Amazon
Published: July 11, 2008 9:01 AM PDT
by Marcus Lai
Warner Bros. Entertainment, Inc.'s Batman Begins Blu-ray disc is the No. 1-selling movie title at Amazon.com in the latest sales rankings.
The Batman Begins Blu-ray disc held the No. 1 rank on Fri. to top all overall movie sales, including DVD in Amazon's Movies & TV division.
http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=6317
Batman Begins BD dropped to Amazon's #2 at the time of this posting:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/dvd/ref=pd_dp_ts_d_1
Even in pinoydvd, I notice that more and more members are getting a Popcorn Hour player.
Nowadays....
Music = iPod
Movies = NMT
But there are still those who buy LP's,CD's & DVD's. I think,after several weeks of crossing the thin line, I will still be a part of the buying market. ;)
I’ve completed a lot of the preparation for Shoot-out II this Saturday at 2 pm, including a 4-hour video calibration session with the AV Driver technician last night. PQ has improved a lot. The tentative plan is as follows:
VIDEO SHOOT-OUT
Players:
1. Panasonic DMP-BD30 Blu-ray player, outputting 1080p native
2. Popcorn DCH-100, upscaled from 720p to 1080p internally
3. Oppo 980, upscaled from 720p to 1080p internally
4. Pioneer DV-696 (very similar to the 600), outputting 480i and then with complete video processing by DVDO Iscan VP50Pro
Material will be “Batman Begins,” basically because we have copies for all types of players, including Popcorn. Besides, pq is very good. We intend to have 3 challenging scenes: dark, bright and action.
All sources will be individually calibrated for brightness and contrast but only the Pio 696 will go through a full video processing by the VP50Pro.
Projector will be a Sony VPL-VW100, 1080p, using a 120” Da-Lite High Power screen. I can assure everyone that the pq will be awesome for ALL sources, but … of course better for some.
The tests will be blind. No one except me and @iiinaslao will know which player is being used. Tentatively, the plan will be for each participant to give a grade to each player for each scene viewed. The tentative criteria are:
1. Detail
2. Jaggies (or lack of it … basically the stair-steps or waves you can see on diagonal lines)
3. Color saturation and accuracy
4. Sharpness, without edge enhancement (this will be explained)
We will determine the rankings of the players per scene, per criterion and overall rankings.
AUDIO SHOOT-OUT
This will be a blind test, comparing Dolby TruHD vs. Dolby Digital. The Panny BD30 will be used and the tentative material will be the following:
1. Blade Runner (sound effects and conversation)
2. Chicago (sound effects, conversation, music)
3. Legends of Jazz (music)
The participants will only be asked to guess which film clip used Dolby TruHD. I can assure everyone that this will be a very challenging test. There is a difference but it’s subtle, depending on the source material.
Any suggestions are most welcome. There are still some available slots so if anyone else wants to participate, he can send me a PM.
Just curious, Hollywood can't chase legally after makers of NMTs?
I think they have to chase after the root cause first... free downloads. Which they couldnt.
Sarap sanang mag-attend sa shoot-out kung matapat sa vacation ko. :( I would have brought 3TB of ammos for everyone's buffet. ;D
Yeah that's right but what I meant is that the main purpose of these NMTs is for playback of downloadable contents in formats that are mostly illegal. It can be argued that without that feature, these NMTs are no more than 2nd rate internet access devices.
sana po isama uli yung oppo 981... marami po kasi di makapaniwala dun sa result nung first shoot-out :)
We have logistic constraints. Marami na kasi ang 4 players. Baka matagal masyado kung 5 players na. Also, I don't have access to an Oppo 981.
One of the problems sa first shoot-out was that the 981 wasn't properly calibrated. That's why I'm getting the 980 today so I have time to tweak it para optimal ang pq nya, using its own internal controls only. This way, we know that all players were tweaked to their best quality, using their internal controls only (except the Pio 696, which will use the DVDO video processing).
True sir. :) But its the same argument with ipods and mp3 players. The free downloaded content (in the form of songs) may be illegal but the device isnt.
Buti nalang no. ;D ;D
Hehe, yes! :D ;D
As I heard before: "FREE is a good price" ;D
I think nga the audio will be the most challenging. I think maybe the truehd will just sound louder haha :D..Let's see. Sir streetsmart, will you just use batman begins, how about the superbit hollowman and bd hollowman? hehe.. I think on the superbit copy it will be hard for people to tell kung sd or bd haha.. ;D
I’ve completed a lot of the preparation for Shoot-out II this Saturday at 2 pm, including a 4-hour video calibration session with the AV Driver technician last night. PQ has improved a lot. The tentative plan is as follows:
VIDEO SHOOT-OUT
Players:
1. Panasonic DMP-BD30 Blu-ray player, outputting 1080p native
2. Popcorn DCH-100, upscaled from 720p to 1080p internally
3. Oppo 980, upscaled from 480i to 1080p internally
4. Pioneer DV-696 (very similar to the 600), outputting 480i and then with complete video processing by DVDO Iscan VP50Pro
Material will be “Batman Begins,” basically because we have copies for all types of players, including Popcorn. Besides, pq is very good. We intend to have 3 challenging scenes: dark, bright and action.
All sources will be individually calibrated for brightness and contrast but only the Pio 696 will go through a full video processing by the VP50Pro.
Projector will be a Sony VPL-VW100, 1080p, using a 120” Da-Lite High Power screen. I can assure everyone that the pq will be awesome for ALL sources, but … of course better for some.
The tests will be blind. No one except me and @iiinaslao will know which player is being used. Tentatively, the plan will be for each participant to give a grade to each player for each scene viewed. The tentative criteria are:
1. Detail
2. Jaggies (or lack of it … basically the stair-steps or waves you can see on diagonal lines)
3. Color saturation and accuracy
4. Sharpness, without edge enhancement (this will be explained)
We will determine the rankings of the players per scene, per criterion and overall rankings.
AUDIO SHOOT-OUT
This will be a blind test, comparing Dolby TruHD vs. Dolby Digital. The Panny BD30 will be used and the tentative material will be the following:
1. Blade Runner (sound effects and conversation)
2. Chicago (sound effects, conversation, music)
3. Legends of Jazz (music)
The participants will only be asked to guess which film clip used Dolby TruHD. I can assure everyone that this will be a very challenging test. There is a difference but it’s subtle, depending on the source material.
Any suggestions are most welcome. There are still some available slots so if anyone else wants to participate, he can send me a PM.
I hope the result of the audio test between dd and dd-truehd will similarly be presented here. The result of a similar test on these new audio formats recently conducted by home entertainment i think is now subject of a very lengthy debate is AVS forum. The result of a similar test conducted here may or will open up minds.
Just came from streetsmarts HT and as much as I am tempted to post our findings in the EB.;D ;D ;D yup yup, its stronger than the earthquake "shockwaves" that hit metro manila kanina morning :o :o...
I will leave the honor to sir Mark to post the results.
I have a feeling that our findings will bring shock waves throughout the pdvd community :o :o :o :o
I must say that Streetsmart has one jawdropping HT set-up specially in its PQ and AQ performance. That was one successful EB and I am looking forward to the next one. BTW, sir Mark please pm me my DD/Dolby TrueHD result. Just wanted to know how I fared. Thanks so much for offering your place for the shootout. Kudos to sir Mark!
O sa sunod na shootout eto naman ang agenda: Hulaan kung DVD, Dibidi o Torrent file ang pinapalabas sa 14 inch TV ;D
Let your eyes decide...
O sa sunod na shootout eto naman ang agenda: Hulaan kung DVD, Dibidi o Torrent file ang pinapalabas sa 14 inch TV ;D
Let your eyes decide...
saya ng eb, lalo na yung resulta! its really surprising!!!
post na sir mark! ;D ;D ;D
glad i was the amuyong during the shootout, ang hirap nung truhd and dd test. listening to the materials in sir mark's ht was really difficult to discern between the two. sa ganda ng set up parang pareho lang talaga.
kaya kudos to sir waxx and alvinh, "the men with the golden ears" ;D
O sa sunod na shootout eto naman ang agenda: Hulaan kung DVD, Dibidi o Torrent file ang pinapalabas sa 14 inch TV ;D
Let your eyes decide...
Doc,
Are we talking "Golden Eyes"? hehe ;D. Truly great to meet everyone who attended. Looking forward to the results, specially of the audio test. Thanks again Streetsmart for your hospitality and sharing your awesome theater!!!
Cheers,
Blackie
why is oppo 5th only?
why is pio better than the oppo?
There were only 4 player. Oppo was last, but this was expected.
The pio was connected to a DVDO Iscan VP50Pro video processor. That's why kahit mahina ang Pio, the video processor still improved the picture so that is was better than the Oppo but the pq can never match BD and Popcorn.
If tanggalin yung VP50, better ang OPPO sa Pio? Btw what model of the OPPO was used?
Is the question whether upconversion SD can beat Tru HD answered conclusively?
"Upconversion SD" refers to video while TruHD is audio.
Sorry, I meant Full HD pala... :P Is the program used on the popcorn a 720P source?
One member will be expelled from Pinoydvd for incorrectly guessing all 6. Golden egg award. Perfect zero.
What I think is that those who made perferct scores and bokya have spot on ears (i would defer to use the term golden) that were able to sonically tell the difference between the six sample tracks!
Get my drift?
It was all a question of what was their preference....Did the DD clip sounded better than the True HD? Or was it the other way around?
Unlike video where we have objective parameters such as jaggies, contrast, detail and other video artifacts, audio is purely subjective on a reference audio rig. There are no basis EXCEPT how your ears picked up the sound and how your brain processed the information and made you decide which is better.
Mind you, we all have different ears, assorted levels of tutule accumulation and unique brain processing capability. That characters are yours and yours alone which makes the audio experience truly unique and personal. That is the beauty of critical audio listening.
Again statistically speaking, those that were in the 40% to 60% margin of error were those that did not know (or were having a hard time distinguishing) the DD tracks from the True HD clips ....In my opinion, those that were on both the far end of the spectrum (perfect and bokya scores) were the ones that have spot on ears (again i defer to use the term golden ;D) that were able to aurally tell the difference between clips.
It was all a matter of which clip sounded better to them.
My sixty cents on the matter.
Kaya sir mark, post mo na din yung mga bokya! Hats off din ako sa kanila!
Rev
I was really surprised that less than half of the participants (that includes me ???) were unable to identify trueHD against legacy DD.
This just proves to me that I do not have to upgrade my current 6.1 set up to a 7.1 set up.
Saves me a lot of money too.
But in all honesty I was so sure of my answer on the first Chicago sound clip.
That's why I am so amazed that DD fares very well against TrueHD.
I remember the water drop sounding so full & rich in the first clip(that's why I chose it over the second) which sounded a little less enveloping.
Oh well I'm happy I don't have to go trueHD yet, maybe pag 10.2 na yung kailangan ;D
@Juancho...I agree bro. I think I already mentioned that I do not even have the hardware for TrueHD. My HK AVR8500 delivers DD that makes me smile or get teary-eyed when I watch a great movie. IMO, as quoted from Visa...priceless. Pero cyempre, TrueHD will still be on my wish list. But maybe not a priority. ;D ;D ;D
We used "Batman Begins" for all players. The Popcorn version was 1080p.
What was the source of the Popcorn Version. Funny how a "ripped" copy does better than the original source :-\ :-\ :-\
What was the source of the Popcorn Version? Funny how a "ripped" copy does better than the original source :-\ :-\ :-\
negative feedback sa pch is yung color redish.
positive side maganda talaga ang pch kasi ang ang ganda ng burger ni debbie ;D
sa bluray panalo talaga tisoy na tisoy eh :D
Joel may dvd ako p**n where it is so clear you can see all the skin imperfections,kakadiri puro peklat :( I did not even finish the whole thing :( :( :( Bad side ng high resolution siguro ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D pag nakainom na ako sanmig light talo talo na yun ;D
bad side din yun ng hi def ;D
sayang pare hindi ka nakapunta namimiss na kita eh :D
@ricky..sayang nga..i was hoping to meet my Jbl idol pa naman.
No idea where the Popcorn version came from. You will have to watch LOTR in Popcorn. Absolutely incredible.
If you ask my personal opinion, I prefer BD. I think the colors are more accurate. I thought that in the particular scenes we tested, Popcorn color was reddish. But of course, my judgment was not from a blind test. Iba talaga ang blind test and the guys who participated aren't the ordinary guys in the street.
Nonetheless, I think that the main conclusion is that HD beats upconverted SD by a mile. Between Popcorn and BD, the difference is actually too small. I'd say it would be a tie.
sayang nga ;D pero ayaw ko pa makulam :D :D :D Basa na lang ako dito para medyo fair ang laban :)
Sir maybe its the same as DD on orig and DTS na sa pirated(third party enhancement ;D) ;D I was really surprised about the result popcorn beat BD ???, yeah I know sd can never win against HD(whether ripped or orig) no matter how great the upscalling is BUt ripped media beating BD is quite interesting ::) ??? :o
brader! wag ka na magalit! nilagay na ni sir mark yung pektyur na andun ka!
sa chibog di ka naman na huli ah! teka ano ba yung chinibog mo sa banyo nung nawala ka? ;D
Im not surprised that PCH/NMTs was at par or even did slightly better than BD in the blind test shootout.
I have been watching MKVs lately, and they do give out the picture quality that I have been looking for in HD content. ;)
OT....sayang di ako nakapunta....mas miss ko yung camaraderie at inom. :'(
definitely a revelation, and as me and sir mark were discussing with sir cedric (late dumating sa eb :)). since almost all members have a hard time distinguishing truhd with classic dd, pq wise popcorn is deadheat with bd, then taking into account the difference in costs of both media, its really hard not to dive into this nmt bandwagon. imagine 55-60 pesos vs. 800-1000 pesos. huge difference! ;D
ang PCH andyan para maranasan natin ang hi def na hindi natin masaksihan dahil sa mahal ng software.
at minsan hindi pa lumalabas sa original ay masasaksihan na natin,kagaya ng nangyari sa iron man.
kaya masarap ang merong
bluray - ps3
sd - oppo
mkv player - pch, egreat
nakakahawa si brader jake ;D
nakauwi na lahat nung tinest namin ni sir mark at sir cedric yung iron man na mkv. ganda!!!
brader joel, yan nga ang the best na player line up na meron dapat lahat ng hd enthusiast, bluray player, upscaling dvd and last but not the least mkv player!!! ;D ;D ;D
Im not surprised that PCH/NMTs was at par or even did slightly better than BD in the blind test shootout.
I have been watching MKVs lately, and they do give out the picture quality that I have been looking for in HD content. ;)
There are also some hidden costs in buying an NMT such as an upgrade to a faster internet download speed, a torrent downloader (low power consumption PCs to download those torrent files), HDDs, and an increase in electric bills. In the long run though after all the hardware have been purchased, the contents of downloaded mkv files is still cheaper than buying the physical HD discs.
True. Unless you have a friendly file-swapping group of friends or a friendly supplier with a big collection.
Opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics in HD (Popcorn) is also just incredible!
In the long run though after all the hardware have been purchased, the contents of downloaded mkv files is still cheaper than buying the physical HD discs.
Same argument regarding P*RAT*ED software...Something you constantly have to remind yourselves. ::) ::) ::) PCH programs encourage Jack Sparrows.
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9870/scr19b0d7gp0bb1.jpg)
True. Unless you have a friendly file-swapping group of friends or a friendly supplier with a big collection.
Opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics in HD (Popcorn) is also just incredible!
nakauwi na lahat nung tinest namin ni sir mark at sir cedric yung iron man na mkv. ganda!!!
brader joel, yan nga ang the best na player line up na meron dapat lahat ng hd enthusiast, bluray player, upscaling dvd and last but not the least mkv player!!! ;D ;D ;D
negative feedback sa pch is yung color redish.
positive side maganda talaga ang pch kasi ang ang ganda ng burger ni debbie ;D
sa bluray panalo talaga tisoy na tisoy eh :D
I think we are just talking about PQ comparisons between an NMT and a standalone BD player which are almost on par. If you are also into HD audio, this is where the big difference in content lies between the actual BD and the MKVs.
si DEBBIE ! ;D ;D ;D
Did you have the chance to test any mkv with DTS or DTS-ES sound stream during the shoot-out?
when i heard mark's announcement...
i have the same impression with sanmig...
although...
wait ko muna yung pm ni mark re: myscoresheet for
my personal reference....
TIA!
During the tests, the comparison of the 4 players was only the PQ. Even the volume was muted.
Interesting results indeed! Nakakainggit dun sa mga naka-attend.
My opinions and comments.
1. First of all, HD DVD should have won the HD war because even its 1/4 ripped version can beat an original BD in terms of PQ. ;D >:( ;D >:( ;D >:(
2. I haven't seen a 1080p PJ in action but I THINK the PJ of Streetsmart has something to do with the "welcome anomaly". My 50V PZ800 Panasonic would show the imperfections (pixellations, noise, etc.) of mkvs (compared to original HD DVD - dont have any BD) especially in fast moving scenes, dark scenes, sky scenes and skin complexion. The same is true for my 37 inch Sharp LCD. Those issues are more pronounced on 720p mkvs. So perhaps, the PJ technology could be the equalizer??? But whatever, it doesn't take any effort to live with some PQ imperfections in some scenes of an mkv because they are not so bad. So long as the file plays smoothly during the entire movie an mkv is high def enough for me.
3. Not all encodes/encoders are created equal. Batman Begins 1080p in mkv is one of those "hit" encodes. Brilliant encoders can make enhancements to the rip as they see fit. Some would even add grains to restore some level of film look on a clean transfer. In any case, 1080p encoding is still very much "hit or miss." Based on what I've seen, it's quite hard to fill a 1TB hard drive with all perfectly playable 1080p mkvs. But then again 720ps are fine.
4. Agree that mkvs' color saturation tend to deviate from that of the original source towards the red, BUT, that can be compensated somehow through manual picture quality settings on the TV.
5. As regards the difficulty in distinguishing between True HD and DD - BANZAI!!! ;D ;D ;D
Baka naman the "good sound" that we hear is attributable to the "good loss/noise", or, lossless sound probably means, certain sounds were actually attenuated in the first place? In simple term, my understanding of lossless is a perfect replica of the original source so if you use a scope, you should see 2 identical curves at any point in the timeline. Perhaps DD deviated from the original curve in a manner that is pleasing to some ears. So lossy is good! ;D ;D ;D
Oh. Perhaps in the next shoot-out, the DTS quality of mkvs can also be put to the test - that is assuming the NMT can output DTS.
Im not surprised that PCH/NMTs was at par or even did slightly better than BD in the blind test shootout.
I have been watching MKVs lately, and they do give out the picture quality that I have been looking for in HD content. ;)
True. Unless you have a friendly file-swapping group of friends or a friendly supplier with a big collection.
Opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics in HD (Popcorn) is also just incredible!
This is More than enough to convince me how good these downloaded files are ;) Sold na ako, If only there woulb be a shop where you can buy downloaded contents :P I tried to download SPR 1080p and its says 162days to finish ;D ;D ;D and we have a 3mbps connection pa :( Now another question is which of the NMTs available is worth owning? :D
I sent you your scores kahapon via PM. There seems to be something wrong with the PM system.
In any case, I don't think you'll mind revealing that you got 3 out of 6 sa audio (samples 3, 5 and 6). That's better than the average cuz less than half got it right.
Sa video naman, your ranking was:
1. BD30
2. Popcorn
3. Pio
4. Oppo
Your scoring was pretty good.
wow, i'm surprised with the result of the PCH performing at par with a stand alone BD player. di pala ako nagkamali sa pagbili ng A100 kahit napamahal pa sa tax charged by DHL ;D
i download 720p movies only because my plasma is only 720p native (1080p capable). does a 1080p movie better than 720p when downscaled to 720p? i only have BBC planet earth 1080p mkv and can't distinguish much with the 720p version.
talking about iron man movie, i use this movie to show off to friends esp the first part where they hit a road side bomb. ang lakas ng kabooom that it fills the room with pounding sound waves using a dtx4.15 sub. ano pa kaya kung hi-end sub or go the cheaper way of having dual 4.15 sub.
We have to consider that the equipment used in the test are not for everyone especially the video processor. With its price, it can do things that we cannot do in our own home setups. Maybe the result would be different minus the hi-tech video processor. We have our own way of viewing or hearing things because we also use different equipment.
Technology is very fast. In this hobby of ours, we almost often perceive that what is new is better. The result of the audio test conducted on these new and old audio formats gives us some life that somehow, our good old equipment still serve us well, and we need not worry so much about the coming of new audio formats.
actually sir gnew, ganun din ako, mga 720p lang dl ko, kasi its only 4-6 gb and my panel is 720p native, but seeing the batman begins in 1080p and iron man in 720p sa 120" screen ni sir mark, i think the 720p iron man was softer, which i liked, kasi mas film like ang dating. because as commented by many here the batman begins clips we tested was really wow in crispness and detail, depends on which school you are. sa akin parang fake pag sobrang clear. ;D
sir mark wala pa akong natatanggap na ganyan! :-\
ayos diba sir mark! seeing pacquiao carrying the country's colors in hd was a sight to see. wala lang nga tayong medal. ;D
I was really surprised that less than half of the participants (that includes me ???) were unable to identify trueHD against legacy DD.
This just proves to me that I do not have to upgrade my current 6.1 set up to a 7.1 set up.
Saves me a lot of money too.
But in all honesty I was so sure of my answer on the first Chicago sound clip.
That's why I am so amazed that DD fares very well against TrueHD.
I remember the water drop sounding so full & rich in the first clip(that's why I chose it over the second) which sounded a little less enveloping.
Oh well I'm happy I don't have to go trueHD yet, maybe pag 10.2 na yung kailangan ;D
ok sir iinas, i will try to download 1080p movie para ma compare. sayang lang kasi sa downloading time sa 1080p, you can get 2 720p na.
2. We used a variety of scenes, including all those you mentioned. We also had a panning scene of buildings with a lot of vertical lines. That's when the jaggies and artifacts of SD were quite visible. In addition, we had a very good example of edge enhancement (face with background of sky) and that's where the Oppo and Pio (a little less cuz of the video processor) failed. I am not sure about your comment on the pj. In theory, I would think that shouldn't happen. The artifacts would be removed by a video processor, not the pj. But I'm not sure. Alvinthx2 would probably be a greater authority.
hi bro juancho, me too, thats what I notice in chicago, the water dripping haha..Wrong pa ???..Ya I might not upgrade my receiver at the moment. My main setup is just in bedroom lang. Maybe if I have a big hometheater type room I will upgrade the receiver right away hehe...
sir ricky you can pm sir gren and sir ert for your nmt needs, as to contents, yup its hard to do it yourself, it takes me 3 nights of 8 hours to finish a movie, but i think with this bandwagon effect on nmts its not far that swap meets will be a norm.
as for units, i think egreat is good in terms of features, remember there are two models for egreat same as popcorn, the a-100 and a-110.
goodluck!
Here are the results:
AUDIO
In the audio test, the % of those who correctly identified lossless audio vs ordinary Dolby Digital:
Overall - 46%
Sample 1 - 29% (Chicago - Cellblock tango)
Sample 2 - 33% (Chicago - last scene)
Sample 3 - 62% (Blade Runner - opening scene, lots of explosions)
Sample 4 - 38% (Blade Runner - bar scene, very deep LFE)
Sample 5 - 62% (Legends of Jazz - Jane Monheit)
Sample 6 - 55% (Legends of Jazz - Dave Brubeck)
Two members are hereby awarded the "Pinoydvd Golden Ear Award" for correctly identifying all 6 tracks. Ang hirap nun: @waxx and @alvinh
Two members get consolation awards for correctly identifying 5 tracks: @marl_5 and @stickfighter
One member will be expelled from Pinoydvd for incorrectly guessing all 6. Golden egg award. Perfect zero.
Three members will be suspended for one week from Pinoydvd for incorrectly guessing 5 tracks. One point lang sila.
Wala muna akong comments. Let's see what people say.
naku ako mababa din score ko 2 over 6 lang :( i think better pa nga sa akin yung wala nakuha kasi at least tama yung pandinig nila yun nga lang they have to think the opposite, yung dinig nila na DD dapat TrueHD and vice versa ;D
Thanks for the reply Streetsmart.
Actually, I'm not sure at all about my theories on the PJ because I haven't really read that much about that tech. How does a PJ achieve native 1080p resolution? In the case of HDTVs, my Plasma is full HD panel so 1080p output is rather straightforward.
You mentioned before the shoot-out that the PCH would be upscaled "internally" (I interpreted internally as that of the PCH itself). However, I don't think a PCH would be that much more powerful than a decently configured HTPC in terms of video processing, for it to be able to make a heavily compressed video file look "as pristine" if not better than the original BD on a 120-inch screen. Hence, I thought perhaps a 1080p projector (with its own powerful video processors??) can somehow achieve that. Plasmas and LCDs may have their own internal upscalers too but because these technologies more of "remap" the video to match the native resolution of the screen as opposed to "process" the video, and as the pixel sizes increase in proportion to the screen size, the imperfections of the mkv become more evident with large-sized HDTV. But then I really don't know for sure so purge me of my ignorance please. :)
Or just maybe, it all boils down to the quality of a particular encode. Perhaps the Batman Begins 1080p encode was simply that remarkable (got to re-watch that again with eagle eyes then)
Regarding the upscaling, this is what actually happened:
4. 720p for Oppo, upscaled by video processor to 1080p. This meant that the Oppo deinterlaced the source to 480p and then upscaled to 720p. At the processor, the 720p was further upscaled to 1080p. In theory, this should have improved the pq because the upscaling of the video processor is superior. Again, brightness, contrast and saturation were adjusted by video processor – yun lang din.
All of this had to be done because that was the only way to do the test efficiently. The result was that:
1. Popcorn pq should have degraded a little bit, yet it won.
2. Oppo pq should have improved a little bit, yet it lost.
3. All outputs to the pj were at 1080p. Therefore, there was no upscaling by the pj.
Same argument regarding P*RAT*ED software...Something you constantly have to remind yourselves. ::) ::) ::) PCH programs encourage Jack Sparrows.
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9870/scr19b0d7gp0bb1.jpg)
It seems that the objective was just to test whether the sound difference between these audio formats is distinguishable. Was there a question on what the participants preferred between the two to determine also the preferred audio format? Salamat po.
The same BD clip was played twice. First time with either DD or Dolby TruHD. The second time with the other audio codec. Hindi alam ng participants which audio codec was used. As clarified by xxxyzledge prior to the test, the question was "Which one sounds better?"
It turned out that overall, most preferred ordinary DD.
The same BD clip was played twice. First time with either DD or Dolby TruHD. The second time with the other audio codec. Hindi alam ng participants which audio codec was used. As clarified by xxxyzledge prior to the test, the question was "Which one sounds better?"
It turned out that overall, most preferred ordinary DD.
Sir mark does this mean that the oppo underwent 2 upscalling?Maybe that is why oppo lost ???
I view/listen to most, if not all of my dvds on DD. I mentioned to Sir Mark that what I thought is DD (based on my own familiarity) is what I determined as the wrong answer. I just picked "the opposite" for my answers and got lucky. ;D
The same BD clip was played twice. First time with either DD or Dolby TruHD. The second time with the other audio codec. Hindi alam ng participants which audio codec was used. As clarified by xxxyzledge prior to the test, the question was "Which one sounds better?"
It turned out that overall, most preferred ordinary DD.
I would still say that your label as "Golden Ears" is well-deserved. Ang hirap talaga to guess all 6 correct, especially when less than half were right.
owww my goodness..this appeared to confirm the findings of a similar test conducted by Home Entertainment
otepsy siguro nga it was because of our over familiarity with the DD.
I view/listen to most, if not all of my dvds on DD. I mentioned to Sir Mark that what I thought is DD (based on my own familiarity) is what I determined as the wrong answer. I just picked "the opposite" for my answers and got lucky. ;D
Thanks Sir Mark. Dapat pala dumerecho na ako sa Casino that night. Lapit na sa Tagaytay, e Lucky night.
Looking forward to Westgrove. I wonder what those speakers sound like. ;D :o ::)
Here's the link to that article:
http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM
I agree with the reviewer. I could only detect the difference with very high-quality concerts and the difference was very subtle. Like more detail with cymbals or piano in the Dave Brubeck track of Legends of Jazz.
I guess the conclusion is that if you are watching an ordinary movie, the audio codec probably won't matter. If you are watching a concert and it's not well-recorded or if your speakers/room aren't top quality, it probably won't matter either.
I guess that in 98% of the cases, it really won't matter.
But video is a different matter.
matindi sir alvin, when we were testing the materials with sir mark, i really taught truhd will be like dts vs dd but i guess it was not. specially dun sa chicago jail scene, kahit ako madami nalito na the 1st clip was truhd when in fact it was the opposite. kaya well deserved "Golden Ears" award sir!
Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD High Resolution offer tremendous sound quality and are extremely efficient for the quality they provide. While still compressed audio, they're closer to the original master than most people will be able to hear.
Between the 640 kbps Dolby Digital and the uncompressed, the difference was even less noticeable. Enough so that most people, even those trained to listen for it, probably won’t be able to hear the difference.
If you’ve been listening at home and are sure you can hear a difference on your favorite discs, be wary. There is absolutely no way to tell that compressed and uncompressed tracks on any disc have anything to do with each other. They could come from different masters, they could be mixed differently, or any number of other variables that makes an in-home test, unfortunately, impossible. That said, trust your ears, and go with the one that sounds best to you.
matindi sir alvin, when we were testing the materials with sir mark, i really taught truhd will be like dts vs dd but i guess it was not. specially dun sa chicago jail scene, kahit ako madami nalito na the 1st clip was truhd when in fact it was the opposite. kaya well deserved "Golden Ears" award sir!
For the blade runner sequence, I remember someone asking afterwards if the volume had not been changed. I am guessing probably why that was asked. There was a rumbling of the subwoofer that just seemed a bit louder compared to the same clip in the other audio format.
Clarification on the audio test:
Before doing the tests, I checked if the SPL of Dolby TruHD was the same as DD. Akala ko kasi dati that Dolby TruHD was louder. Based on my tests, however, the SPL was the same.
Some more interesting stats from the blind tests:
VIDEO - 21 judges
1st place votes
Popcorn - 15
BD30 - 8
(2 ties)
2nd place votes
Popcorn - 6
BD30 - 12
Pio - 1
3rd place votes
BD30 - 1
Pio - 20
Oppo - 1
(1 tie between Pio and Oppo)
4th place votes
Oppo - 20
CONCLUSION - Clear win for Popcorn
AUDIO - 22 judges (dumating si Esi)
# of correct answers vs # of judges
0 correct - 1 judge
1 correct - 3 judges
2 correct - 9 judges
3 correct - 2 judges
4 correct - 3 judges
5 correct - 2 judges
6 correct - 2 judges
CONCLUSION - Magpatingin na kayo ng tenga kay Esi! Pwera lang si waxx, alvinh, stickfighter and marl_5 ;D ;D
nasa majority pala ako (2 correct) 9 kami na ganun ang score. kung sa botohan panalo sana kami he he he ;D ;D ;D
Hi Streetsmart,
Just curious, so how does the Popcorn Hour video look if you feed the signal directly to the PJ without the gamma corrections provided by the video processor?
I haven't actually seen or tried any NMT but with the HTPC, the software players I use provide all sorts of video renderers to choose from and allow manual tweaking of PQ - gamma corrections, among others.
BTW, I've been drooling at your video processor since yesterday. ;D
Thanks!
Sir I think winner pa din yung oppo 980 imho :-[, considering the price/performance of oppo(double upscaled :() vs. pioneer+vp50pro combo. :o :D And HALOS ::) same price lang yung 980 at 696, and what made the pio excel Im sure is the dvdo iScan which is so expensive naman :o As for comparing an upscaled 980 to bd/PCH true resolution, no match talaga kasi even the htpc's 480p is hard to beat na with reg dvdp's 480p, what more yung 720-1080p pa.
What is more surprising is the PCH beat the iScan combo and BDp :o :o :o akala ko ultimate na yung video processor, I was saving for it but now yahoo hindi pala, popcorn lang katapat nya ;) mas mura pa di hamak :D Thanks for your shoot-out madami makakatipid in terms of both hardware and software :o ;) 8)
The performance of the Oppo is better gauged when it is compared to other stand-alone units playing SD material. Thus, the first shoot-out (Oppo 980, Oppo 981, Oppo 983, Pio 600, PS3, HD-A35, HD-XA2, BD30) which involved only SD material is more relevant. In that shoot-out, the Oppo 980 performed excellently!
The PCH will always beat a player with SD material, even if you pass the signal through a high-end video processor. The issue is the material, not the equipment. HD material has just so much more content, more detail.
Sir available na yung "The Edge"? wala pa sa site nila last time I checked. DVDO product din ba ito?
I have just sent PM's to all participants of the Blind Test, containing your scores.
Thanks for sending my results thru PM, Bro. Mark ......
hindi ako yung "bokya" ....... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Attorney,
Ang sakit mo naman magsalita. May galit ka sakin??? ;D
I have just sent PM's to all participants of the Blind Test, containing your scores.
Here are the results:
VIDEO
On a range of 1 to 5 (5 is highest):
Popcorn - 4.23
BD30 - 4.07
Pio - 3.32
Oppo - 2.72
This was the same ranking in each of the individual tests (Detail, Jaggies, Color and Sharpness)
AUDIO
In the audio test, the % of those who correctly identified lossless audio vs ordinary Dolby Digital:
Overall - 46%
Sample 1 - 29% (Chicago - Cellblock tango)
Sample 2 - 33% (Chicago - last scene)
Sample 3 - 62% (Blade Runner - opening scene, lots of explosions)
Sample 4 - 38% (Blade Runner - bar scene, very deep LFE)
Sample 5 - 62% (Legends of Jazz - Jane Monheit)
Sample 6 - 55% (Legends of Jazz - Dave Brubeck)
Two members are hereby awarded the "Pinoydvd Golden Ear Award" for correctly identifying all 6 tracks. Ang hirap nun: @waxx and @alvinh
Two members get consolation awards for correctly identifying 5 tracks: @marl_5 and @stickfighter
One member will be expelled from Pinoydvd for incorrectly guessing all 6. Golden egg award. Perfect zero.
Three members will be suspended for one week from Pinoydvd for incorrectly guessing 5 tracks. One point lang sila.
Wala muna akong comments. Let's see what people say.
Ok thanks sir for the results
There are 3 things that I can conclude in the shootout.
1. sd material is no match to hd.
2. Audio is hard to tell
3. I am not vic12 :D..
4. 720p for Oppo, upscaled by video processor to 1080p. This meant that the Oppo deinterlaced the source to 480p and then upscaled to 720p. At the processor, the 720p was further upscaled to 1080p. In theory, this should have improved the pq because the upscaling of the video processor is superior. Again, brightness, contrast and saturation were adjusted by video processor – yun lang din.
out of curiosity, may I kindly ask why the Oppo's capability to output 1080p not used? (I presume the Oppo 980 was used, right?)
out of curiosity, may I kindly ask why the Oppo's capability to output 1080p not used? (I presume the Oppo 980 was used, right?)
also, I used to have the PCH A100 but shifted to the EGreat M31B and Novatron NTD38. I think the content source itself will make a significant difference, hands-down (normal DVD title vs the same title in BD or HD-DVD or the equivalent 1080p encoded file).
I also have the Oppo 980 and so far it has been good for my DVD titles. If I am not mistaken, mine is set to pump out to 1080p.
Anyway, the iSCAN seems quite interesting and would check out the lead on the "EDGE"...
Hope to join you guys next time... too bad last weekend was very tight for me due to family duties... :-)
curious lang... bakit ang daming nagbenta ng second hand unit ng popcorn hour pagkatapos ng shootout na to? ::) ::) ::)
I'd also like to add that based on my observation during the shootout.
The diff. of SD vs HD is more apparent in bright scenes as oppssed to dark scenes where shadows drown out the details.
That's to my eye don't know about the others
Some more blind test video statistics:
First scene - court room (medium brightness)
2nd scene - fight scene in train (dark)
3rd scene - young bruce + fight scene in snow (bright)
Average scores of HD (average of BD + Popcorn) vs SD (average of Oppo + Pio):
First scene
HD - 4.35
SD - 3.39
Difference - 0.95
Second scene
HD - 4.16
SD - 2.94
Difference - 1.22
Third scene
HD - 3.95
SD - 2.72
Difference - 1.23
^ I might have to agree :-\i just hope not .. >:(
I was talking to a couple of guys, couple days ago, and this was their responses regarding high def..For real ito.
1st person. Blu-ray? players are 50 thousand pesos right? I have to correct him
2nd person. Ive seen nmts versus upconverted. Not much difference daw. Upconverted is like hd na.
1st person. Downloaded movies na hidef? ok yan ah..Just hi speed internet and solved na..Cheaper ata..
I think these are really the perceptions of the majority, not only here in the Phils but also abroad. Maybe thats why sales of bd are not as expected.
I'm just sharing the responses of "the regular dudes that love movies" during our discussion of hidef and standard dvds. I think its impt to share this here bec. these are people outside of this forum. Its just a couple of guys but majority probably have this thinking..Pinoydvd, hidefdigest, avs, etc. these are just the small majority that are talking how BIG and successful blu-ray is now. I also prefer owning discs than downloads. I love what bd offers videowise and love what sd offer in title selection. Who knows what will happen.
For titles not worth buying in Blu-ray format, I download and just watch thru my NMT.. ;D ;D ;D
Paano pag dead na ang BD mawawala na din ba ang HI-Def downloadable contents for NMT's dahil wala na sila mari-rip.
Paano pag dead na ang BD mawawala na din ba ang HI-Def downloadable contents for NMT's dahil wala na sila mari-rip.
i suggest that they include a firmware update for blu ray players to play HDDVD media
in that way HDDVD owners doesnt have to double dip on titles they already have ..
i think this will help them in their sales .. :D
I have to say that sony has mismanaged the way bluray is being marketed. it's really a evolutionary rather than revolutionary improvement over dvd and any attempt at premium pricing is bound to fail as consumers fail to notice the difference. SACD's and DVD-Audio are examples of similar technologies which failed to gain mainstream acceptance.
Yup dvd was really awesome compared to vhs, I remember my vhs machine eating the tape etc etc ;D..DVD just blows vhs away, miles away. Blu-ray blows dvd away by just a few car lengths :Dlets not forget that there was a time when our old dvd players couldnt play dvd9s :P
Dvd video have great video na, have scene selections, special features, no player firmware updates :o..and a whole lot more over vhs.
ung laser disc nga dati di pwede magplay ng cd eh :Diirc they were both released late 80's .. same technology i guess. :D
iirc they were both released late 80's .. same technology i guess. :D
lets not forget that there was a time when our old dvd players couldnt play dvd9s :P
...but the extra details make my mind focus on those instead of the movie. So you could say I had more fun with the SD... growing pains...
OT: I went to metrowalk and took a look at the pirated blu ray's in their realistic looking blu ray case. Funny that there are pirated blu rays of the Lord of the Rings, Star Wars Original Trilogy, etc. As far as i know, those haven't even been released in Hi Def yet.
When was this?1999 - 2000, my sony and my friends apex could not read dvd9s ..
I bought one of the very first commercially available DVD players, a Pioneer DVL-9 combination LD/DVD player back in 1997, and it played DVD-9 discs flawlessly.
hehehe, very true, thats why its also a hit and miss thing buying those bd /dvd9 jack sparrows. there is a higher chance of a good copy if you know that the bd version has been released already. ;D
I have a standalone DVD player, BD player and NMT. For now I don't buy DVDs anymore. For titles not worth buying in Blu-ray format, I download and just watch thru my NMT.. ;D ;D ;D
On the contrary, there is actually a better chance of getting a perfect copy if it's a direct DVD to DVD transfer.
If it's a BD to SD DVD conversion, there's a 90% likelihood that the transcoding process is defective. Errors such as motion judder, slo-mo scenes, and out-of-sync audio are common.
It's probably true that BD is facing stiff competition from HD downloads, judging from the high level of interest that the NMT board has been generating.
The longest thread in the HD board is the "PS3 as a blu-ray player" thread, with 57 pages since Nov. 2006. The longest thread in the NMT board is the "Popcorn Hour A-100" thraead, with 14 pages since May 2008. That's an average of 2.48 pages per month for PS3; and 2.33 pages per month for NMT. In 6 months, the NMT thread already has 14 pages; while the PS3 thread, in its first 6 months, had only 6 pages.
Very impressive stats for Popcorn, considering that it's such a new gadget!
Its also featured in one of the latest issue of T3 magazine ata.
OT: T3 magazine s*cks. THeir November issue features the HT of my friend and the write-up is just garbage. Same thing with their write-ups on other HT equipment. This is why I don't think it's such a big deal to be featured in that magazine.
OT: I went to metrowalk and took a look at the pirated blu ray's in their realistic looking blu ray case. Funny that there are pirated blu rays of the Lord of the Rings, Star Wars Original Trilogy, etc. As far as i know, those haven't even been released in Hi Def yet.
OT: I went to metrowalk and took a look at the pirated blu ray's in their realistic looking blu ray case. Funny that there are pirated blu rays of the Lord of the Rings, Star Wars Original Trilogy, etc. As far as i know, those haven't even been released in Hi Def yet.
Just goes to show that Jack Sparrows are also responsive to their market just like any other legit business, I can just imagine these guys meeting in their shadowy lairs and discussing marketing stats on their nifty laptops going: "Hey guys our blu-rays are up by 32% in the 2nd half of 08, we should put more titles in this segment by Q1..." :D not a far-fetched idea though...hehehe kulit, im sure they have some sort of a home office naman siguro :D :D
hard ecocomic times :(
also, I think BDs would not be able to push out sd dvd just as sd dvd are not able to push out vcds
VHS was the leading home video format, never VCDs. VCDs were never accepted in the States as an home video format.I think he's referring to the fact that it may take time for Bluray to supplant DVD, the same way, VCDs still outsells DVD locally...
I think he's referring to the fact that it may take time for Bluray to supplant DVD, the same way, VCDs still outsells DVD locally...
I think the trend now is in internet distribution. People want to get their contents fast. If they want to watch or listen to something, access the net, click among choices then boom..viola. The success of this model can be seen in the distribution of music contents wherein iTunes is king, having overtaken the sales of traditional retailers. http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/archive/itunes_still_top_leading_music_reseller_in_the_us/ (http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/archive/itunes_still_top_leading_music_reseller_in_the_us/)
As the internet speed is getting faster and cheaper (at least in developed countries >:(), I think the sales of video contents will someday overtake the sale of physical discs---be it bluray, dvd, etc.
- Blu-ray should have better quality than downloaded HD movies (I cannot really comment much on this because I do not have Blu-ray player, my basis is that downloaded HD movies are mostly rips from Blu-rays or HD-DVD and undergo compression)
...But rips of groups like esir, ctrlhd and eureka are getting more transparent to the source. Most people won't see the difference.
For 720p, it's still pretty obvious even with smaller screens. But for the premier 1080p encoding of these 3 groups, I think it's reasonably safe to assume that most viewers would simply stop to care about whatever improvements the original BD can offer. They are too stunning already.
I agree that most viewers won't mind the very subtle differences especially when they're free. ;) But some purist and hard-core fans would prefer the original nonetheless. Like for instance in CDs, although the mp3 ripping techniques now are very good and the sound quality is almost as transparent to the source CD, still some audiophile (with golden ears) swear they could hear the difference between lossless (original CD) and lossy (mp3 format), which for most audience is simply negligible. Maybe psychology comes into play. ;D
The age of the single format is over. Video in multiple formats is now the irreversible trend.couldnt agree more, im pretty sure we will endup having a bluray/mkv/dvd/hddvd player in the future, just like divx, avi dvd players .. :D (very possible since firmwares can be updated, this should include codecs and stuff)
It's undeniable that Blu-ray is the best of the best. That's why it remains the videophile's choice. But with the way things are today, BD will have to give up its hopes of becoming the dominant video format.
couldnt agree more, im pretty sure we will endup having a bluray/mkv/dvd/hddvd player in the future, just like divx, avi dvd players ..
There is already a gadget that can do that since last year. It's called an HTPC. ;Doo nga pala .. :D :D
Here are my personal opinions on this:
Bluray - I only buy Bluray of movies that have been recently released, like 2005 up. An exemption of this is the Star Wars movies, hopefully to be released soon. If I also buy older movies, then it will never end! :)
Dvds - Older movies that I like, with good audio and video, and really good supplements. Since DVDs are getting cheaper by the month, it's a good time to buy some of my older favorite movies on Dvd.
Download - Movies that don't need surround sound and high definition, like romantic comedies. And, movies that don't give any supplements worthwhile on Dvd or BD.
Here are my personal opinions on this:
Bluray - I only buy Bluray of movies that have been recently released, like 2005 up. An exemption of this is the Star Wars movies, hopefully to be released soon. If I also buy older movies, then it will never end! :)
+1 sir imperial
Dvds - Older movies that I like, with good audio and video, and really good supplements. Since DVDs are getting cheaper by the month, it's a good time to buy some of my older favorite movies on Dvd.
+1 sir imperial
Download - Movies that don't need surround sound and high definition, like romantic comedies. And, movies that don't give any supplements worthwhile on Dvd or BD.
sir imperial, you should try to download an hd mkv file that can be played by an nmt or hd media player. pq and aq definitely excellent. of course there are no add ons. :)
I own an NMT, DVD player and Blu-ray player and nothing beats the PQ and AQ of a blu-ray disc played on a blu-ray player.. But I only buy blu-ray titles (even old titles) that I like or reviews of which indicate they are excellent in terms of PQ and AQ. I download HD (720p) versions of TV series and comedies and watch using my PCH A-110. I don't buy DVDs anymore although I still have a substantial number of DVDs in my collection, some of which are double-dipped with blu-ray versions.
Mga sirs, what are these HTPCs and OPPOs? Any help for me to understand this technology? Thanks!
Me too! :)
There are some movies that haven't been uploaded yet, or have super low amount of seeders. For this, I go and buy the original. :)
bro, ano ang pang-download nyo and pang-play nyo ng mga downloads?
Mga sirs, what are these HTPCs and OPPOs? Any help for me to understand this technology? Thanks!
OPPO is a company which makes great DVD players such as OPPO 980H and OPPO 983H and coming is the OPPO Blu-ray player.. HTPC is Home Theater PC, basically a computer which plays media contents like mkvs, mp3s, etc.. basically an NMT is also a computer which can also play media contents from high def movies, music, pics..
So HTPC's are different than normal PCs? What does NMTs stand for?]
Wow, it's really the first time I've heard these items.
HD content in torrent sites have large files right? Wow long does it take you guys to download these? :)
So HTPC's are different than normal PCs? What does NMTs stand for?
Wow, it's really the first time I've heard these items.
HD content in torrent sites have large files right? Wow long does it take you guys to download these? :)
(http://www.acer.com.ph/pics/products/X3200.gif)
My PS3 is gathering dust....my HTPC is a workhorse playing and downloading all those yummy mkvs. Guess that explains it all! (http://www.emotty.com/images/emoticons/892.png)(http://www.emotty.com/images/emoticons/892.png)(http://www.emotty.com/images/emoticons/892.png)
]
HTPCs are computers with much better video and audio processors with HDMI ports thus you can connect this to your Digital TVs.. NMT means networked media tank, basically a computer dedicated to playing media contents.. DVD discs are played by DVD players while Harddisc drives with media contents (movies, music, pics) can be connected to and played by NMTs..
Sir imperialcog, we have threads for HTPCs and NMTs. Please try these childboards, I'm sure you'll enjoy browsing them:
1. HTPC: http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?board=138.0 -- Most popular is the Acer Aspire X3200:
2. NMT: http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?board=139.0 -- Most popular is the Popcorn Hour A-100:
(http://www.popcornhour.com/userhome/onlinestore/a-100T.png)
3. If you like it cheap and simple (as I do ;)), also consider the Western Digital WD TV HD Media Player:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/11aY4kadYuL._SL500_AA115_.jpg)
http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?topic=87629.0
HTPCs are the best. NMTs are next-best, but more convenient. Hard Disc Media Players are the simplest and cheapest, but are also the least capable.
The era of the single-format video is over. The age of the multiple-format video is here to stay! 8)
So HTPC's are different than normal PCs? What does NMTs stand for?
Wow, it's really the first time I've heard these items.
HD content in torrent sites have large files right? Wow long does it take you guys to download these? :)
Thanks a lot bro!!
What I usually do is I download torrents, burn them into data discs or use a USB drive, then watch it on my PS3 or Philips DVD player with USB capabilities.
Is that basically the same as those other formats? Or is the audio and video better? I have not downloaded HD content yet since the files are so big, like 10 gigs for movies and 2 gigs for TV shows. I think I'll have to wait so long for them to finish downloading.. haha! :)
Thanks a lot bro!!
What I usually do is I download torrents, burn them into data discs or use a USB drive, then watch it on my PS3 or Philips DVD player with USB capabilities.
Is that basically the same as those other formats? Or is the audio and video better? I have not downloaded HD content yet since the files are so big, like 10 gigs for movies and 2 gigs for TV shows. I think I'll have to wait so long for them to finish downloading.. haha! :)
bro imperialcog, dami na nagreply sa question mo... maaasahan lahat ng members dito to help understand better mga bagay-bagay about home entertainment and gadgets :)
i thought your downloading HD movies na... anyway, goodluck to all your future downloads hopefully HD na sa susunod ;D ;D ;D
WOW. :) I never knew there was a world like this pala... haha! I mean I knew you can download HD torrents, but I never knew there are actually gadgets specifically made for playing these..
I usually go to Mininova.org... Is this a good place for HD content also, or do you suggest a better one?
Are the HD movies being downloaded have the same quality as original BDs or are they just like the Jack Sparrow ones? :)
Thanks for all the replies guys! :)
Downloadable HD movies are definitely better than DVD but not as good as original BDs when shown in HDTVs larger than 50"..
but just to add, they can almost have the same quality as BD but not surpass them. ;)
This wasn't the conclusion in our blind test last September, in which 20 Pinoydvd members participated. The Popcorn soundly beat the Panny BD-30.
This wasn't the conclusion in our blind test last September, in which 20 Pinoydvd members participated. The Popcorn soundly beat the Panny BD-30.
This wasn't the conclusion in our blind test last September, in which 20 Pinoydvd members participated. The Popcorn soundly beat the Panny BD-30.
WOW. :) I never knew there was a world like this pala... haha! I mean I knew you can download HD torrents, but I never knew there are actually gadgets specifically made for playing these..
I usually go to Mininova.org... Is this a good place for HD content also, or do you suggest a better one?
Are the HD movies being downloaded have the same quality as original BDs or are they just like the Jack Sparrow ones? :)
Thanks for all the replies guys! :)
Thats weird ha. Hi def downloadables are the direct results of ripping either BDs or HDDVDs. Theoretically speaking, the result should not exceed the source. They can either only match it or have a lower quality - Am i right? Please correct me if im wrong. ???
Anyways, im glad i have an NMT instead of BD player for now. :)
i think this was discussed already in another thread. that this encoders can actually tweak the image to become sharper, sometimes sharper than i like actually. :)
mahirap na pag usapan ng detalye dito, na principals office na kami nung pinagusapan ito ng detalye. ;)
but 20+ members really scored the nmt image better than bd. :)
NMT's better than BDs? Ok yun ah!
Maybe particular BDs lang.. Like I have a handful of BDs already and I can really distinguish which ones have better transfers than others. If you compare the Incredible Hulk and Iron Man, the Incredible Hulk surpasses the other in terms of transfer. As well as Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix, the Order is so much better than Azkaban. As in! I watched Azkaban first, then when I went to the Order, I was super blown away! :) But of course that's just my opinion, and some of the people I work with who have seen these titles, too. :)
I believe there's a flaw in the shootout of pch vs. pany bd-30. The materials being played are different. PCH is playing a 1080p reencode of Batman Begins (ESiR's rip I assume) while Pany an original BluRay disc. To determine which device is better, the materials should have been the same. Bluray disc vs. full Bluray backup copy. A good encode must be transparent or identical to the source as possible. But there are encoders who oversharpen the picture quality, which is, in my opinion as well as that of most high def enthusiasts, not right. To answer the question posted above, yes it's possible for the encode to be better than the source but this is not proper and ideal.
Example, comparison between Batman Begins HD DVD (24.8gb) vs. EuReKa 1080p encode (23.9gb): http://www.imagebam.com/image/dcb3e09000719 (http://www.imagebam.com/image/dcb3e09000719) vs. http://www.imagebam.com/image/3078a69000726 (http://www.imagebam.com/image/3078a69000726)
But to conclude that all rips/reencodes are better than the original is wrong and not entirely accurate. The original is still the best...the spring can never rise up beyond its source. What are nice with original or full blurays are the bonus materials and lossless audio. ;D
I was in the same shoe as you are bro, i was satisfied with watching 700++ MB movie on my TV before.. as long as i dont see movie house copies im definitely enjoying it. however, when i was introduced to MKV, 1080i/1080p i just cant imagine watching SD back, my wife and i is simply loving it.. i purchased mr Oreoshakes Popcorn Hour and used that to download Hi Def torrents. I just upgraded my DSL plan to 2MBPS.. sulit na sulit!
This wasn't the conclusion in our blind test last September, in which 20 Pinoydvd members participated. The Popcorn soundly beat the Panny BD-30.
I believe there's a flaw in the shootout of pch vs. pany bd-30. The materials being played are different. PCH is playing a 1080p reencode of Batman Begins (ESiR's rip I assume) while Pany an original BluRay disc. To determine which device is better, the materials should have been the same. Bluray disc vs. full Bluray backup copy. A good encode must be transparent or identical to the source as possible. But there are encoders who oversharpen the picture quality, which is, in my opinion as well as that of most high def enthusiasts, not right. To answer the question posted above, yes it's possible for the encode to be better than the source but this is not proper and ideal.
Example, comparison between Batman Begins HD DVD (24.8gb) vs. EuReKa 1080p encode (23.9gb): http://www.imagebam.com/image/dcb3e09000719 (http://www.imagebam.com/image/dcb3e09000719) vs. http://www.imagebam.com/image/3078a69000726 (http://www.imagebam.com/image/3078a69000726)
But to conclude that all rips/reencodes are better than the original is wrong and not entirely accurate. The original is still the best...the spring can never rise up beyond its source. What are nice with original or full blurays are the bonus materials and lossless audio. ;D
not the same with my system when i compare an original BD title played on my BD30 with its Hi-def downloaded version and played in my PCH 110.. lamang pa rin ang original BD title in terms of PQ and of course AQ.. but then again its subjective..
I believe there's a flaw in the shootout of pch vs. pany bd-30. The materials being played are different. PCH is playing a 1080p reencode of Batman Begins (ESiR's rip I assume) while Pany an original BluRay disc. To determine which device is better, the materials should have been the same. Bluray disc vs. full Bluray backup copy. A good encode must be transparent or identical to the source as possible. But there are encoders who oversharpen the picture quality, which is, in my opinion as well as that of most high def enthusiasts, not right. To answer the question posted above, yes it's possible for the encode to be better than the source but this is not proper and ideal.
Example, comparison between Batman Begins HD DVD (24.8gb) vs. EuReKa 1080p encode (23.9gb): http://www.imagebam.com/image/dcb3e09000719 (http://www.imagebam.com/image/dcb3e09000719) vs. http://www.imagebam.com/image/3078a69000726 (http://www.imagebam.com/image/3078a69000726)
But to conclude that all rips/reencodes are better than the original is wrong and not entirely accurate. The original is still the best...the spring can never rise up beyond its source. What are nice with original or full blurays are the bonus materials and lossless audio. ;D
Thanks a lot bro!!
What I usually do is I download torrents, burn them into data discs or use a USB drive, then watch it on my PS3 or Philips DVD player with USB capabilities.
Is that basically the same as those other formats? Or is the audio and video better? I have not downloaded HD content yet since the files are so big, like 10 gigs for movies and 2 gigs for TV shows. I think I'll have to wait so long for them to finish downloading.. haha! :)
To iiinas and streetsmart,
First of all, I'm not discrediting the findings of your shootout. The blind test shows that 20 video enthusiasts prefer the picture quality coming out of pch playing 1080p encode vs. a bluray player, given the particular sources and gears used. There are many factors why PCH displays a better PQ at that time...maybe the 1080p encode is from HDDVD and not bluray (it's possible for the hddvd and bluray version to have different PQ), maybe personal preference comes into play with regard to color (like sir streetsmart pointed out), etc. So I don't contest the conclusion that pch beats panny in that particular blind test.
However, I'm more concerned about the implications and generalizations being drawn. Some readers are confused and thought that encodes are always better than the original BD/HDDVD, which is and should never be the case. [although some encodes may be oversharpened to look better than the orig]. So I felt the need to express my opinion on the matter to balance the views. At least 2 pdvd members, oreoshake and iiinas, have pointed out from their experience finding their orig BD bit better than the encodes they have.
To eksi,
That EuReKa's 1080p encode is from HDDVD. The size is almost the same as the orig HDDVD. :o This example shows that encodes may be better than the orig, and is rather an exception than the rule. The general rule is orig BD/HDDVD is better than encodes but if properly done, their differences are subtle and quite difficult to distinguish. ;)
Hehehe Mga Parekoy! Sensya na for peeking at pandoras box here :D :D :D
Happy New Year sa Lahat!
Next time na me shootout, sama na ko hehehehe :D
point taken. its just weird talaga. going into the affair, it was a given that bd should be chosen hands down. everyone who participated were surprised at the results too. but as they say, you can't go wrong with what your eyes tells you is the better picture, file or disc; good encode or bad encode.
what i can really say for sure is what is happening now with technology gives everyone a choice to what they think will satisfy their needs for hd viewing. in the end, every consumer is a winner! i don't think there is a wrong choice out there right now, pq wise and even to a certain extent aq wise. ;D ;D ;D
However, I'm more concerned about the implications and generalizations being drawn. Some readers are confused and thought that encodes are always better than the original BD/HDDVD, which is and should never be the case. [although some encodes may be oversharpened to look better than the orig]. So I felt the need to express my opinion on the matter to balance the views.
Having said that, maybe we can repeat this blind test next year. Next time, you should join and even help to design the test. Its interesting cuz based on the comments of some participants, it can be a pretty frightening experience. When the test is blind, it's so hard to tell the difference for both picture and audio, as long as the encode is good. :)
Yes, it's basically the same. But the disadvantage with playback on your PS3 and/or your DVD player's USB port is that format support will be limited. You will eventually encounter many files that will not play properly.
I converted a DVD that I own into a 1.5GB file (Ave. bitrate 2.148 Mbps, 720 x 320 resolution, AVI container, XviD codec, Dolby 5.1 audio), then tested it on my Philips DVD player using a USB thumb drive . Play stuttered on high-action scenes. 1.5GB na nga lang yan, pumapalya pa. >:(
HTPCs and NMTs, on the other hand, were specifically designed to play downloaded media files, so format support and playback performance are expectedly superior. (The above-mentioned AVI file played flawlessly on my WD media player.)
It's up to you how far you're willing to go. To my mind, the starting point is really your monitor's capability.
Get a high-resolution monitor or front projector, and only 1080p-MKV files can satisfy you. You will not be happy with a WD media player; you will have to get at least an NMT. Then you will need more hard disc storage space. Then a faster internet connection. There's no telling when the rounds of upgrades will ever end.
But if you limit yourself to a low-resolution monitor, then you'll be just fine with 700MB files. No need for expensive players, terabytes of storage, or blazing-speed internet connections.
What I'd be interested in is DVD player that also front-loads a My Passport. No need to plug and unplug a USB port, just dock the My Passport like an 8-track audio tape cartridge. Now that would be really convenient. ;)
I'm glad you're enjoying your PCH 100 bro.. I'm enjoying my PCH 110 too.. still got so much Hi-def TV series downloaded na hindi pa napanood.. and am still downloading.. ;D ;D ;D
Same here.. i just download as much as i can, im using only a 160GB HDD just to try the PCH and after a week puno na siya :D dapat talaga nakinig ako sayo to buy a tera HDD! ;D