Topic: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?

[rascal101]

Kasi siya ang pilit ginagaya eh. 

 

Baka raw siya mabasag sa tono 

Hindi niya ma-take 

Sir JojoD218,

Sensya na. Nakuhaan niyo na ba ng waveforms iyung SET using square
wave input. Ano kaya voltage overshoot niya? Mayroon ba siyang oscillation?
Ito yata dahilan kung bakit ang sound ay nagmumukhang natural. Iyung audio
signals kasi may natural oscillation. Tama ba?

Sensya na sa tanong ko kasi hindi pinapakita sa mga libro (na nabasa ko) iyung
mga actual waveforms na nakukuha sa amp.

Rascal101

[ATJr.]

hey rascal101,

instead of debating with jojo, why don't you try to learn as much as you can about amps

and may i suggest that you forget all that you know about SMPS, the thing that you know about them has very little to do with AUDIO.  AMPS are about Linear ananlysis, smps, are non-linear, very little to do with each other!

my 2 centavos...

[rascal101]

Sir 2ny,

I am reading the books you got me to read and I am getting information that
you asked me to. I've already read the RCA tube manual. The point I am making
is on the transformer design and the inherent capacitance on the vacuum tube.
Since the audio signals are non-periodic pulsed waveforms there is no way to
damp the voltage overshoot except by improving leakage inductance and winding
capacitance (kaya siguro uso bifilar winding). Proper tube selection also comes to
mind - one will less capacitance.

Just wanted info what percentage you're getting as far as overshoot is concerned.
How much for a mean voltage of say 200V? Is 1% reasonable?

I am not getting to a debate with anyone here, just wanted the information for
a project I am working on.

I am getting there ... with the tubes

Rascal101

[ATJr.]

The point I am making is on the transformer design and the inherent capacitance on the vacuum tube.
Since the audio signals are non-periodic pulsed waveforms there is no way to damp the voltage overshoot except by improving leakage inductance and winding capacitance (kaya siguro uso bifilar winding). Proper tube selection also comes to mind - one will less capacitance.

try to understand what the tube plate characteristic curves mean and how to interpret them, also with tube ratings and what they mean. they are key to your succesfull analysis of tube circuits.

regarding transformers, design and analysis on them are based on sine waves, for lack of any other, and the logic here is that if they are good then, the transformer is good! every designers' goal is to have an output transformer with very high primary inductance,(good core +plus number of turns) low dc resistance, low leakage inductance, and low interwinding capacitance! you see these items are in contradiction with each other, so design really boils down to compromises, getting the most out of given materials and budget!

the irony here is that music is very different from sine waves! who listens to sine waves any way, they are boring!

i suggest that you read the materials over and over again, these takes time to digest, you are still young, you  got plenty of time.

[AICRAG]

to answer the thread...simple lang "biggest reason" ko...don't have the money to invest on this equipment...more than 10yrs na ako di bumibili audio equipment.

[JojoD818]

rascal101,

No debate here  do try and listen to Tony, he has the years of experience, besides, ang dami na exclamation (!) marks ng post ni Tony. 

On a serious note, after all the years that you are about to devote in audio analysis, may I suggest that you try and learn to "listen" rather than just "quantify". Sometimes our measurements which seems correct may not sound good to our ears. Disclamers here.

Me and my 1.0 cents

[rascal101]

Sir Tony, Jojo,

May project kasi akong ginagawa at pinagtutugma ko bench measurements sa listening. Nakagawa na rin ako ng marami raming samples since nagsimula kami last December. Listening test kami with some audio friends hopefully this Friday gamit rev 4. And hope to finalize design by end of January.

Humihingi lang naman po ng mga measurements kung meron man.

Salamat uli.

Rascal101

[brandon]

Hhmmm..... baligtarin natin ng kaunti...

Question: What's the biggest reason why you want to go tubes?

Answer: Because Solid State amps tries so hard to duplicate Tube sound... 

          ... but always end up better sounding than tubes.   
     
   How else would you explain tube's dramatic demise in home 'hi-fi' systems?
   ...Because it isn't 'hi-fi' sounding? Oops! Sorry, no offense meant for tube lovers... 
 

[john5479]

subjective.....

[JojoD818]

          ... but always end up better sounding than tubes.   
     
   How else would you explain tube's dramatic demise in home 'hi-fi' systems?
   ...Because it isn't 'hi-fi' sounding? Oops! Sorry, no offense meant for tube lovers... 
 

That's true, so you better not listen to tubes since these things are not hi-fi sounding. 


 

[odyopayl]

Maybe if I have these:

[rony]

Jojo mahabang debate talaga ito, alang katapusan yan.  

[JojoD818]

Jojo mahabang debate talaga ito, alang katapusan yan. 

Correct sir! 

Kaya dapat wala ng debate, session na lang tayo. 

[john5479]

enjoy the music...kahit hindi hi-fi....oops ayaw ko pala ng masyadong hi-fi kasi parang dry..hehe

[vvt-i]

That's true, so you better not listen to tubes since these things are not hi-fi sounding. 


 

jo,

sabi nga sa stereophile, SET in particular that the presentation sounded like music, not like hifi. 

[s2kov]

kung SET yan, ibang usapan na yan!

[john5479]

yang SET na yan....mapapagastos tuloy ako sa speakers hehe

[levi]

Another answer to the subject. Misconception.

[JojoD818]

yan gusto ko kay sir Levi, paminsan-minsan lang kung mag post pero malaman. 

jo,

sabi nga sa stereophile, SET in particular that the presentation sounded like music, not like hifi.

ah speaking of which... iba talaga ang ganyang SETup.  makikinig na lang ako.

[rony]

kung SET yan, ibang usapan na yan!

Stucky yan na naman SET na yan. 

naiiwan yun isang amp pag yan yun tumutunog. 

[John E.]

seem like a good topic for those who are not yet into tubes or not going into tubes! bump!

[louiesia]

maganda to compare the expensive ss amp to an expensive tube amp



sa


audio

[bass_nut]

there was a recent significant surge on price tag on my preferred s/s amps :-((

hence, the more reason i will take good care of my tube amps 

[qguy]

there was a recent significant surge on price tag on my preferred s/s amps :-((

hence, the more reason i will take good care of my tube amps  

very true.. if you look at the prices of SS Integrated amps today I am surprised they still sell, although there is some convenience with SS, not needing any replacement parts like tubes which is a plus for the owners.

I have been on both sides, I even switched from SS to tubes then back to tubes..what I noticed is that when I listen to SS, it demanded that I pull out my speakers for better imaging and I should be at the center of the soundstage, then I roll out my sound absorbers (area rug), put large pillows on the wall..etc etc.etc.. When I switched to tubes, I just turned on the system and listened to the music, most of the time I am not even dead center between the two speakers and I still enjoy the music.  

[kulapong]

What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
- yung title biased kasi...kaya nagkagulo dito sa thread na to..... eh kung
What's the biggest reason why you won't go SS?
- malamang gulo din yan

eto na lang ang sa akin

pag nasa house ako...trip trip lang yan
- minsan gusto ko makinig sa CD/SACD/tape/TT using SS or Tube amp
- pag wala kang magawa dahil long weekend or holiday..try mo i switch yung mga setup na yan againts each other kasama na mga klase ng kable...pati cable ni Cal at iba pa...tingnan mo lang ubos oras mo... umaga na di ka pa tapos
- isama mo na placing ng speakers / me aircon o wala, bukas bintana o sarado, me carpet or wala (hirap mag tanggal ng carpet ah)

ang akin lang naman...maganda yan parehas.... medyo mag biased lang ako ng konti ah he he
- pag using iphone/android/nmt with remote, parang napapa next agad ako sa next songs..sa sobrang dami ng mp3/flac collections ko, parang gusto kong pakinggan lahat, pero di ko magawa..feeling ko tuloy bitin palagi
- pag nilalabas ko yung plaka sa lalagyan nya, at nilalagay ko sa TT at pinapakinggan...palaging me kakaibang excitement...kahit ilan beses ko na napakinggan yung mga plaka na yun..lalo na pag sa tube amp nakakabit
- minsan, bubuksan ko na tube amp ko para mag init..magkakape at yosi muna ko..tas me excitement na naman, di ko maipaliwanag mga bro...
- pag nag jo jogging ako, ok na ok sa akin ang iphone to listen to mp3's sabi kasi ng utak ko....Brod ok lang yan, maganda naman tunog eh..si apple naman me gawa nyan....pero kung gusto mo bitbitin mo yung turntable at tubeamp mo...kung hinahanap mo pa rin yung klase ng tunog..try mo lang kung kaya mo buhatin habang nag jo jogging..syempre sabi ko...cge Bro...oks na to

mas masarap magbigay ng komento kung naranasan mo parehas tas syempre.... respetuhan
And sa akin -
tube ako sa kwarto
SS ako sa living room
yun lang po.. Magandang Hapon!!

[mykel18]

I want to but I still need to learn a lot more. And I really hope to own one someday.

[tony]

i am a tubehead, but i will never say tube amps are better sounding than SS amps....
imho, better to have both types and rotate them once in while....

the biggest reason not to go into tubes is one of cost....SS amps can be cheaper...

tube amps require the owner to have some basic maintenance skills...
and if you are going into tubes just so you can tube roll, then i will advise you do not...
if you buy tube amps on the basis of getting other tubes to roll, that will leave you frustrated
as many here sold their tube amps later...
if you buy tube amps, get them for the sound that you like, not for the tube rolling potential...

[CoolTOYZPH]

From personal experience. If you buy a tube amp, get something with a sound that you like, and ALSO with tube components with potential for rolling.

Eventually the sawa factor will set-in and the ability to tube roll will satisfy the urge to listen to something new without disposing of the gear. If the tube AMP uses Boutique tubes, you might need to sell the Tube AMP when the sawa factor sets in.

[cyberdraven]

I want to but I still need to learn a lot more. And I really hope to own one someday.

leben na ba pre?

[mykel18]

leben na ba pre?

Hinde