Topic: Separation of church and state

[indie boi]

i'm just being honest.  especially in the Philippines where being rich seems to be an evil thing.  people do use that argument about the Church to promote hatred against it

Then generalize your statement.

[choy]

It’s a setup in paper … but we have the history in our text books which RC tried to eliminate … not because it is untrue … but because it is a bad image for them. What further substantiation do you need? I will not debate about these facts – it will always be played down by those who looked the other way!

Clearly the bible says … you will know them (the agents of good and the agents of evil) … by their fruits and their roots!

and i'd like you to prove this accusation

the problem is people keep huling stones at the Church, but don't even know the facts
someone says something, and they believe it

Lest I be misinterpreted, not all RC (and its institution) followed their roots!

clarify please
the Church is one and the same.  some people may form their own opinions, but that doesn't mean they sway the Church to another direction.  they just move individually into that other direction.  which technically means they as a person have separated from the Church

As to the separation of church & state, I think this is just human machination to avoid connivance between church & state – that is the church using the state to further its agenda, or the state using the church in furthering its agenda.

separation of Church and state serves both a positive and a negative agenda.  the positive being, it opens the state for a diversified population regardless of religion

the negative being, the state becomes unanswerable to the Church on moral issues, and becomes its own moral police.  the problem here is morality becomes a democracy, so if 50% + 1 agrees that murder should become legal, then it becomes legal.

Religion should be considered personal in nature, while state affairs are collective efforts for the good of the majority without imposing on ones religious persuasion. Church is the group of individuals with the same religious persuasion.

i believe thats one of the evils that is taught in todays world.  that faith is personal and should be separated from society.  the second commandment of Jesus is to love thy neighbor.  obviously community is very important in worshiping God.  its a constant theme in the bible that we should all be One, not only with God but with one another.  if we can't live together on earth, how can we live together in heaven?  God will not permit chaos and separation in heaven.

Is it bad for the church to be involved in business? Of course not. The bible do not prohibit this.

as long as the business is done in good faith

The church commercial dealings is commercial, and not religious in nature. As such, it should be taxed (give to Caesar what belongs to him). RC has their own bank in the past – Monte de Piedad. If it is not subject to tax, it is not because of the separation of church & state – it could be an accommodation of the state to the church. Of course, this is also some of the roots of corruption in commercial dealings using church as its shield – invoking separation of church & state!

don't think that only the Church benefits from being tax exempt.  ideally those who contribute to the Church should get tax exemption for their contributions.  thats how it is here in North America.  i don't know why this isn't followed in the Philippines.  maybe because they BIR wants ever centavo in its pocket

Is it bad for the church to get involve in state affairs? Depends! If the state is not imposing on personal matters relating to ones religious persuasion, then the church should not meddle. If it does impose on our personal religious persuasion, the church should get involve (this is biblical – read RUTH). Some of our good democratic laws were derived with the indulgence of godly people.

since its EDSA day, remember that if Cardinal Sin didn't get involved with state affairs 24 years ago, Marcos would have remained.  Ramos and Enrile would have been vaporized in a military attack on Camp Crame

So is CBCP justified in meddling in our past political upheavel? Why not! It is supposedly intended to support good governance (so we thought in will result to good governance). But note that this meddling was not force to each individual. It is up to the individual to act according to his own reason or personal persuasion.

agree, as pastors of the people they should look at the total well being of every person.  not just spiritual, but total, including their daily lives as Citizens of the Philippines

also, don't forget that they are Philippine Citizens as well.  they have the right to get involved into politics

So is CBCP justified in meddling with this new health bill? I THINK NOT! The state is passing a law to control our population growth the way it knows how – but reading the law does not encroach on ones personal action. CBCP is only crying foul because it is counter to their doctrine. But RC is such an inconsistent organization – minoring the major and majoring the minor. Instead of CBCP giving its much efforts in media rhetorics against the initiative of the state that does not impose on ones decision to act, why don’t they instead push their own program to counter the same problem (educate if its to educate). If they do not want to control population, how can they help the state in controlling the problems that emanates from poor family planning. PRAY? Eat DOCTRINES?

again, as Philippine citizens, they have the right to say yes or no to laws, just as everybody else
also don't forget their obligation to protect the morality of the people.  so of course they should fight laws that will promote immorality

Bottomline, people should have freedom to ones exercise of religion. Church is just the group of individuals with the same religious persuasion. Our political life will always be influenced by our religious leaning but not to the point that it will effectively trample other people’s religious leaning (think about Jihad). So there is not much separation here!

However, state affairs should not encroach/impose on our religious leaning if our religious leaning do not trample on the right of others to exercise theirs. (This is the issue of ARMM muslim ways of managing ARMM areas whose residents are predominantly Christians – the rebels seemed to be bent in governing using Islamic persuasion – or so I think)

well, of course Muslim communities want legal laws that coincide with Muslim laws so they can carry out punishments according to Islamic laws without violating the law of the land

[indie boi]

and who says the world's population needs to be curtailed?

while China, India and the Philippines are crying because of their population boom, the Western world is worried because they do not have enough population to support funding for their soon-to-be retirees

the problem is not over population.  its just population distribution

What a novel idea. How do you propose to do this?

[choy]

Um, maybe to the country where the companies they own stocks in are registered/headquartered and generate/report income in?

Last I checked, if you owned stock in say, Canada, you pay Canada the taxes on your dividends.

no, i don't think thats how it works

i own stocks from a past company i worked for thats registered in NASDAQ, and i have never paid even a cent to the US government

you pay taxes to the state where you live

dividends are paid to stock after the company have paid their taxes anyways.  dividends are always the last to be paid, expenses first, then to creditors, then to employees, then to shareholders

[choy]

What a novel idea. How do you propose to do this?

change in policy.  but its entirely up to the nations needing additional population.  Canada is already taking in a couple hundred thousand people every year.  i hear Germany also has this problem but i don't know about their immigration policy

faster processing would be beneficial to both the immigrant and the country that needs the additional people.  its already happening but we just need to find a way to make it faster and more convenient to those who would want to move

in the Philippines, developing other areas is also a good idea.  so not everyone would have to come to the already overcrowded Metro Manila to find a decent job.

also, with current technology we can develop cities in non arable land so as to preserve crop growing land

there's still a lot of land in the world for people to live in, and to plant crops for food.  we just need better distribution

[indie boi]

change in policy.  but its entirely up to the nations needing additional population.  Canada is already taking in a couple hundred thousand people every year.  i hear Germany also has this problem but i don't know about their immigration policy

faster processing would be beneficial to both the immigrant and the country that needs the additional people.  its already happening but we just need to find a way to make it faster and more convenient to those who would want to move

in the Philippines, developing other areas is also a good idea.  so not everyone would have to come to the already overcrowded Metro Manila to find a decent job.

also, with current technology we can develop cities in non arable land so as to preserve crop growing land

there's still a lot of land in the world for people to live in, and to plant crops for food.  we just need better distribution

So in the hypothetical case that these countries you've identified as underpopulated suddenly impose extra stringent immigration policies that severely limit the number of people that can migrate then the burden of overpopulation becomes their problem because they won't open their borders to immigrants? Sa kanila natin isisisi kung bakit madaming tao sa ibang bansa?  

That's like a person who decides to keep cats as pets and then allows them to breed unchecked to the point that there's just no more room in his house and he can barely feed them.  And instead of acknowledging that he has an overpopulation problem in his house, he says that it's not a problem of too many cats, its about distributing the cats to all of the houses in the neighborhood who has room for them so that they can assume the problem of taking care of these animals and looking for extra money to feed them.

You really thought this one through. 

[alistair]

the problem here is morality becomes a democracy, so if 50% + 1 agrees that murder should become legal, then it becomes legal.

Murder, as defined, is already 'unlawful'. The neutral term is homicide. Yes, there are lawful forms of homicide. Such as the death penalty.

if we can't live together on earth, how can we live together in heaven?  God will not permit chaos and separation in heaven.

Why can't each denomination have their own little heavens? Or parts of heaven walled off? That way, everyone can think they're the only ones there.

[alistair]

no, i don't think thats how it works

you pay taxes to the state where you live

Depends on the jurisdiction, and any tax treaties in effect.

I own a handful of stock in a Canadian company, and every time I get my dividend check there's always a withholding tax.

"Non-residents stockholders receiving dividend income from Canadian resident corporations are subject to a 25% withholding tax."¹

Pretty sure they have similar laws that apply to corporations. Not sure about sovereign states.

[aHobbit]

and i'd like you to prove this accusation

the problem is people keep huling stones at the Church, but don't even know the facts
someone says something, and they believe it

I dont know how old you are ... if there are no people who left the catholic church, those that are already high in the hierarchy ... then probably we are still all guessing here. And you sound as if we dont know the facts just because it runs counter to your assessments ... why? are all that the RC did in time past not documented at all? Or just like the NAZI, are you denying them altogether now?

I will not hurl stone ... I will just quote those documents ... but I dont need to ... they are still open books till now!

What substantiation do you need ... for me to enumerate them all? I can do that ... but for what reason ... because you are not aware of it? I just have Zaide way back in my HS in 1976!

[aHobbit]

Hi Choy,

I like the way you dissect the issues - my comments in blue  

clarify please
the Church is one and the same.  some people may form their own opinions, but that doesn't mean they sway the Church to another direction.  they just move individually into that other direction.  which technically means they as a person have separated from the Church

we may have vague reference to church. in separation of church & state, it is the hierarchical leadership of the laymembers vs the heirarchical leadership of the citizen (the state). So you are correct in saying they remain the same one church


separation of Church and state serves both a positive and a negative agenda.  the positive being, it opens the state for a diversified population regardless of religion

the negative being, the state becomes unanswerable to the Church on moral issues, and becomes its own moral police.  the problem here is morality becomes a democracy, so if 50% + 1 agrees that murder should become legal, then it becomes legal.

The state is never answerable to the church in its state functions - neither the church answerable to the state in its church functions. The church should inspire and encourage the laymember to be an active agent to bring about good & righteous governance in the state as a citizen (not the church). The state should protect the right of the citizen in areas of faith


i believe thats one of the evils that is taught in todays world.  that faith is personal and should be separated from society.  the second commandment of Jesus is to love thy neighbor.  obviously community is very important in worshiping God.  its a constant theme in the bible that we should all be One, not only with God but with one another.  if we can't live together on earth, how can we live together in heaven?  God will not permit chaos and separation in heaven.

This is a lie peddled by some politicians on us & sadly some of the church leadership. However, the church is also being extreme in this manner, putting their weight on the state as if they are political power that the state should deal with. Faith can never be separated from our daily dispense of our responsibility as citizen. In fact, faith will influence us how we conduct ourselves in our respective state. Thus, it is imperative for all laymembers to  assert their voice as citizens in the state - influence the decision making process of the state - through the exercise of rights as a citizen. THUS, it is perfectly alright for a priest torun for public office if he is exercising his right as a citizen and influence the decision of state toward good governance according to his personal faith leaning as a state unit administrator/lawmaker


as long as the business is done in good faith

Yup. But let it be clear that the conduct of commercial business by the church is in no way a church function, but an exercise that is within the control/regulation of the state. For this reason, business (even if it is held by religious organization) should be answerable to the state by way of taxes and compliance to business rules. Sadly, this is gravely abused by some institutions. They usually do not exercise social responsibilities.


don't think that only the Church benefits from being tax exempt.  ideally those who contribute to the Church should get tax exemption for their contributions.  thats how it is here in North America.  i don't know why this isn't followed in the Philippines.  maybe because they BIR wants ever centavo in its pocket

Again, this is a function of the state. and if ever in US, such was accomodation was given to the church, then that's good. If the citizen will lobby for a law be enacted by the state to copy same exemption in your area - then perhaps it will be implemented - but this is a state function.


since its EDSA day, remember that if Cardinal Sin didn't get involved with state affairs 24 years ago, Marcos would have remained.  Ramos and Enrile would have been vaporized in a military attack on Camp Crame

The best that I can think of is that Cardinal Sin encouraged the citizens to exercise their rights as citizens - that is perfectly okay. In fact such exercise is not limited to the catholic hierarchy. And mind you it is not the church that paved the way for EDSA - it is the collective efforts of every individual exercising his responsibility as a citizen - not as a church! Pardon me - I always got a feeling that CBCP is laying claim on the success of EDSA1. I disagree - it is the laymembers of the church execising their social responsibilities as a citizen under a state.


agree, as pastors of the people they should look at the total well being of every person.  not just spiritual, but total, including their daily lives as Citizens of the Philippines

This is the new world view which I advocate. All well-meaning laymembers should actively involved in politics (affairs of the state) and not disregard it as something contrary to ones faith - this is simply not true. We should not let all those ungodly people running the state in chaos and utmost disregard for good governance & order. We should be in the forefront in influencing sensible & reasonable laws that will aleviate our challenges and difficulties.


also, don't forget that they are Philippine Citizens as well.  they have the right to get involved into politics

again, as Philippine citizens, they have the right to say yes or no to laws, just as everybody else
also don't forget their obligation to protect the morality of the people.  so of course they should fight laws that will promote immorality

well, of course Muslim communities want legal laws that coincide with Muslim laws so they can carry out punishments according to Islamic laws without violating the law of the land

But good governance (state function) is about the collective protection and equal treatment of people. It is not about imposing ones' belief toward another. it should not traverse against individual belief/faith. Thus, ARMM is not batting for state functions - they want it a combo state/church functions! and thus should be stopped at all cost - as we should voice out for the scrapping of such

[Nelson de Leon]

I believe that the church should be taxed on their profits on investments. Profit is the main purpose for their investment. Gumamit ka kasi ng pera to generate income unlike income sa mga donations.

And question (subjective), ganun nga ba kalaki talaga ang kita through investing in shares or stocks? Wala kasi ako masyadong alam dito. I mean is it worth investing Php50 million in shares rather than using the money to directly help the people in dire or immediate need?

[RU9]

the problem is not over population.  its just population distribution

and how do you achieve that population distribution, is this doable?

the business model of the catholic church - the more the people the more money it gets - baptism - marriage - death- daily collections etc. well its all bout money.

 

[bass_nut]

the Catholic Church encourage responsible parenthood

[dpogs]

The Concern with Authority

Authority must be understood by every Christian since it is the entire basis of our relationship with Christ. “Authority” means “the right to command and enforce obedience.” When we accept Jesus Christ as our “Lord,” this means that He is supposed to become our “boss” or “authority” over our whole life (Luke 6:46). In addition, the Bible becomes the source of authoritative instruction for our Christian Life (2 Tim. 3:16).

Since submission to authority is basic to Christian Life, it is important that we understand that all authority is a God-given institution, and all types of authority are related. The Lordship of Christ is the highest source of authority that we must answer to (Matt. 28:18), but God has also ordained at least three other categories of subordinate authority in the world that we must also submit to:

(1) The Family - Children are to obey their parents (Eph. 6:10). The wife is to cooperate with her husband, which is the head of the family (Eph. 5:22-24, 1 Tim. 2:12), and the husband is to submit to Christ and love his wife (Eph. 5:23,25).

(2) The State - We are to cooperate with those authority figures and obey the local and federal laws of the land, within the boundaries of God’s laws (1 Pet. 2:13-14).

(3) The Church - Christians are to submit to the headship of Christ which is exercised through His Spirit (Rom. 8:14), His Word (2 Tim. 3:16), and Church leadership (Matt. 18:17-20, Heb. 13:17).

God has established these authorities as the “delegated” extensions of His authority. If we resist cooperation, we are in effect, resisting God’s own authority and Lordship. This is why Paul told wives to submit to their husbands “as to the Lord” (Eph. 5:22).



Rebellion Disrespects all Authority

Just as all authority is related to other authority, all rebellion is also interrelated. It does not regard any class of authority. Rebellion is “the unwillingness to be ruled by any source other than self.” It is an indiscriminate contempt toward all authority.

Our attitude toward Christ as our Lord, is directly associated with our attitude toward other authority. Jesus Christ cannot be fully “Lord” over the person who harbors rebellion toward authority figures. The Bible says, “Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves” (Rom. 13:2).

Just as God is the source of all authority, Satan is author of all rebellion. We may recall that the Devil (Lucifer), a former archangel, was originally cast out of Heaven because he led an insurrection against God (Isa. 14:12-15). Rebellion is the very spirit of Satan’s attitude (Eph. 2:2), and if we permit it to dominate us it will infect and taint our attitude toward all authority, including God and His Word.

The prophet Samuel said, “...rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry” (1 Sam. 15:23). The Apostle Peter said that those who are corrupt “despise authority” (2 Pet. 2:10), and the Proverbs say, “An evil man seeks only rebellion...” (Prov. 17:11).



What About Corrupt Authority?

Obviously, in the absence of Godly and moral values, there can sometimes be abuses of authority and perversions in government. Such was the case when Peter and John were forbidden to preach the Gospel by the Jewish Sanhedrin. They replied, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge” (Acts 4:19). The only circumstance that disobedience to authority is justifiable by scripture, is if it conflicts with the laws of God. Authority should be cooperated with except in those situations where laws depart from the basic moral and righteous principles of God’s Word.

Paul tells us to pray for all those in authority: “ I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence” (1 Tim. 2:1-2). God can use our prayers for those in authority, to either change their heart or remove them from power entirely. God reserves the right of administering discipline and reproof to those who represent His authority (Rom. 14:4, 1 Chron. 16:21-22).


a government must maintain peace and order among her people and must create laws that will not contradicts to God's law.

a church must function according to God's will and must teach all her members to be a good citizen obeying all rules and regulation set by the government as long as it does not contradicts God's law.

any form of rebellion to our existing authority (government) are wrong. This is what every Christian (every citizen) must understand. All authority is from God. Hindi natin kailangang sumama sa mga rally rally to show our discontentment sa present administration... If it is God give... then we can pray to our own altar para alisin ang sinumang masamang namumuno sa atin.


for me... participation of any denomination to a 'rally' is not advisable... para na rin nating sinabing may karapatang mag-rally ang mga anak natin sa ating authority. if ever meron silang hindi nagustuhan sa ating pagdidisiplina... magvivigil sila sa labas ng bahay natin... as much as possible we wont that happen so as parents gagawin natin lahat ng ating makakaya not to disappoint our child and at the same hindi sila ma-spoiled.

same sa ating government... our government must do her best not to disaapoint us but at the same time not tolerating us sa kung anuman ang gusto natin nasusunod... and kung naging masama man ang pinuno natin... our only rights is to pray for them earnestly since it was God who put them to position and only God can bring them down.


note:

maybe we have unrighteous leaders mainly because every church here in the Philippines were not doing their obligations : to produce a law-abiding, God fearing, family oriented and morally upright individuals/citizens.

maybe we have too many corrupt officials because church pastors/minister/priest/etc were too busy collecting money from their members/businessess/etc. or too busy doing their business outside church.

maybe we have too many unfit officials because every church were too busy criticizing the present administration instead teaching her members to be a righteous official.

di man lang ba tayo nagtataka... tinatawag ang Pilipinas na Christian nation and yet we have too many corrupt officials... why... our churches today are not doing their obligation/duties... to produce God-fearing, morally upright, family oriented and law-abiding citizens.

our government are doing what she is supposed to do: giving us a freedom of religion (hindi pa tayo pinagbabawalan)... sana ang bawat simbahan din (i mean lahat that includes all RC, protestants, etc) gawin nila kung ano ba talaga ang dapat nilang ginagawa... hindi kung anu-anong political endorsement/bussineses...

[dorian_gray]

the Catholic Church encourage responsible parenthood

by letting their priests reject their parental responsibilities? Or how about by being pedophiles?

[bass_nut]

by letting their priests reject their parental responsibilities? Or how about by being pedophiles?

a priest in our town was stripped off his priesthood due to an offense he committed ..so what is your point ?

[moejun]

his point was pretty clear to me

[bass_nut]

not to me as i replied to a point different from his

[vx2]

by letting their priests reject their parental responsibilities? Or how about by being pedophiles?

The government also rejects their own laws or anti-corruption agendas and so on and so forth.

The point is moot. The flaws you mentioned are exactly that, flaws that are separate (and even opposite) from the original principles and ideals.

On topic, you have a corrupt government and a church intertwined in politics, and you know what they say about corruption like a rotten core...

[moejun]

not to me as i replied to a point different from his

that's too bad then, and i said it was clear to ME  . no worries though, i'm sure you'll get it eventually.

[dpogs]

that's too bad then, and i said it was clear to ME  . no worries though, i'm sure you'll get it eventually.

how about you po sir...

do you have any ideas to share regarding separation of church and state?

[moejun]

^ i'm all for it. i believe the church has meddled long enough.

[bass_nut]

that's too bad then, and i said it was clear to ME  . no worries though, i'm sure you'll get it eventually.

too bad you failed my line

on topic:
there are pros and cons to said separation as one of our participants pointed out.. government must have a starting point as to what is right and wrong... the religious sector has a role on this segment.. when guide lines and state laws were established, then implementation rest on government sector

[dorian_gray]

a priest in our town was stripped off his priesthood due to an offense he committed ..so what is your point ?

is he in jail?

What support has the church given to the victim/s?

[bass_nut]

is he in jail?

What support has the church given to the victim/s?

sorry sir i am not allowed to share further info as i do not have permission.. suffice to impart that the Church is acting on cases brought to its attention...  i hope you don't mind

[dorian_gray]

sorry sir i am not allowed to share further info as i do not have permission.. suffice to impart that the Church is acting on cases brought to its attention...  i hope you don't mind

so you are withdrawing this as proof then?

[bass_nut]

so you are withdrawing this as proof then?

huh ?

[dorian_gray]

a priest in our town was stripped off his priesthood due to an offense he committed ..so what is your point ?

You cited this as an example and yet you refuse to tell the whole story.

Is the priest in jail?

Did the church do anything for the welfare of the victim/s?

Did the church testify against the priest?

[bass_nut]

You cited this as an example and yet you refuse to tell the whole story.

Is the priest in jail?

Did the church do anything for the welfare of the victim/s?

Did the church testify against the priest?

you were implying that the Church was not responsible enough to act on offenses committed by priest(s).. i told you a sample of action taken by the Church on a priest.. hence, my point: the Church is responsible enough to take actions on complaints brought to its attention...for me that was enough and is the whole story... a sinner committed sin, punished... it is either you believe it or not.. it was that simple

[aHobbit]

You cited this as an example and yet you refuse to tell the whole story.

Is the priest in jail?

Did the church do anything for the welfare of the victim/s?

Did the church testify against the priest?

To sir Dorian gray & bass nut:

Things will not clear because you have not established a common ground.

(1) Church has no law to execute like the state for the simple reason that church is church and state is state. Putting a man in jail is a function of the state, and not the church! Of course, the church should assist in prosecution if the member really offended a state law that is punishable by state. (Doctrine of giving to caesar what is caesar's)

(2) At best, the church can excommunicate the member. Church can not execute law - it is illegal.

(3) the church, as used here pertains to their hierarchy of leadership (as to the RC). However, the Bible made no mention of hierarchy in church. If you read DPOGS post, you will note that the only headship in the church is CHRIST! The present hierarchy of RC is not in the Bible. I am not saying it is wrong - it is how they wanted to administer and organize themselves - But as far as the Bible is concerned, they are not the church. Again, at best, they are just representative of the RC organization.



And bottomline, all commercial dealing of the church should be subjected to tax ... unless the state exempted them from therein ... thus, non-payment is not automatic as if it is a mandated default since they are operated by "religious" organization!