Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion

[alistair]

hmmmm... sa ngaun wala pa eh... pero darating din tayo diyan... kasi mukha talagang nagevolve ang car galing sa kalesa...

pinadrawing ko pa nga sa sikat na artist ano magiging itsura ng sinaunang car eh...

That's not evidence. Try harder.

Let's start with: Do cars reproduce by themselves?

kasi sa napaka komplikadong system ng sasakyan...malabong ginawa lang yan ng isang matalinong tao o kung sino/ano man...

That's actually true. With modern cars, no single person is responsible for the design or manufacture of them.

So, again, try harder.

I mean, seriously. Try something with a real thought process behind it. Don't just troll for trolling's sake. I'm being generous.

[alistair]

We all form our conclusion based on evidence and what we know. What is true now may not be true later.

This is how Science operates—forming hypotheses and theories around observable and verifiable fact. Then later experiments and observations can invalidate earlier theories so new theories are formed to supplant them, and so on.

Therefore if no missing link, then created. if meron makita, it will be evolution.

But this is where you're mistaken. Evolution is fact—and there is an abundance of proof supporting it. In fact, evolution (micro-) itself has been demonstrated in repeatable experiments.

Now—if you're talking about homo sapiens evolving from Australopithecus, the mere absence of evidence does not invalidate it. Meaning, all other surrounding evidence still points to it.

More importantly, no other theory sufficiently challenges it. In layman's terms—there is no other theory that is currently more plausible alternative theory for how homo sapiens came about. None.

If you have one better, I'd love to hear about it.

nakita na dinosaur and wala pa din si missing link would tell you something naman di ba.

Not all dinosaur fossils can also be proven to have evolved from earlier species' fossils. Does that mean that some dinosaurs also magically just appeared out of nowhere?

There is some speculation, for example, that the Cambrian Explosion might have been triggered by some extra-terrestrial means—not E.T., but possibly, say, alien microbes that hitched a ride on an asteroid from somewhere far away. But there is little hard evidence to support that, too.

[barrister]

When the devil did say you will have knowledge between good and evil. di ba naging true yun? Bakit mas alam ng devil ano yung instant result?

Dito na lang sa part na ito ako magco-concentrate sir, ang dami kasi ng tanong mo.  And last na ito, kasi magagalit na ang mods dahil hindi naman ito religion thread.

Ang sinabi ng serpent ay hindi lang "you will have knowledge between good and evil."  Eto ang talagang sinabi niya:

“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Gen. 3:4-5)

The part about "you will not certainly die" is a blatant lie.

The part about "your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil" is a half-truth.  Bakit?

Ganito yon:

Sina Adam and Eve, hindi alam ang good and evil.  That means ang alam lang nila, basta sinabi ng Diyos, susunod nila, wala sa isip nila yung hindi sila susunod.  

Pero may free will sila sa isang bagay lang: kainin o hindi kainin ang forbidden fruit.  Pag kinain nila yon, they will know good and evil, like God.

Yes, it is true that they will be like God in that aspect.  Ang problema, hindi nilinaw ng serpent that they will not be like God in other aspects.  

They will just know the difference between good and evil, yes.  But they will not become all-wise, all-powerful immortal spirits.  In fact, namatay pa nga sila.  Naloko sila ng serpent.  

That's why it's a half-truth.


=======================


Post ka na lang sa religion thread, sir.  Magandang topic yan.

Yung sagot na Adam and Eve died a spiritual death, sagot ng tamad yon.  Hindi kasi maisip kung bakit hindi namatay agad sina Adan at Eba, ayaw nang pag-aralan.  


 

[Dilbert7]

Creationists and conservatives will cry over this.

Science Prevails In Missouri And Alabama As Creationism Bills Die In Both States

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Teaching creationism in public school and colleges as part of science curriculum is wrong. Doing such a thing amounts to indoctrination. Because that’s exactly what these bills are all about. Indoctrinating students into the Christian religion, even if parents, the students, and scientists object. If students want to learn about creationism, they can do so in church. But in science class, only fact based theories that are supported by real evidence should be taught. The death of these bills is a big victory for science and reason and ensures our kids get a quality education.[/i]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/21/creationism/

Well, who said stupid lawmakers only exist in the Philippines! (see high-lighted red)

I cried ... laughing  !

[Dilbert7]

A must-read article.



F**K CREATIONISM: UPDATED

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Well, evolution is a theory and it is also a fact. Evolution is defined as a change in allele frequency in a population over time. Evolution has been observed in nature (the million years? - by whom?  ) . Evolutionary Theory, explains the mechanisms of evolution (the fact). Scientific Theories are not merely guesses as the ignorant Creationists try to portray them. Scientific Theories describe a large set of observations with as few arbitrary elements as possible. Good ( ) theories make predictions about future events and are always falsifiable. This means that there must be some way to render the theory false, if indeed it is false. A good theory also shows a mechanism, and in the case of evolutionary theory, the mechanism of natural selection has been widely observed and demonstrated (ha ha ha - let me guess: In Galapagos Island? - try harder - ).

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More at http://www.ruthlessreviews.com/962/crap-creationism/

good try (I enjoyed red portions) - the usual rhetoric, and yet no proof or iota of convincing evidence to back it up!

Who needs paradox? I am still crying ... laughing!

[Dilbert7]

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Oh, right. He was formed by God out of clay. Have we seen other beings coming out fully formed from clay lately?

Have we any observable, repeatable and falsifiable experiments or theories on how clay turns into biological, organic, multi-cellular, cognitive and moral creatures?

Or are we back to magic wand?

What's your theory?

ha ha ha  

The fact is that when man dies, he became part of the soil (or clay)!

He do not become less human, then monkey, then single cell organism, etc! Don't ask me! Perhaps evolutionist saw something else.

Still no convincing proof offered?

[Dilbert7]

Why are conservatives in America so scared about the teaching of evolution in schools as well as the many evolution books sitting on library and book store shelves?

What's with the effort to gradually stop people from learning about evolution?

Something scares them inside.

The liberals are as afraid as (what you said) republicans about creation! Actually, it is really a money matters - those pesky global warming scientists!

[Dilbert7]

Di ba na banish sila sa eden lest they eat the fruit from the tree of life, and they will not die? So why sinabi na yung tree of knowledge will make them die? what is the purpose of the tree of life if they are immortal in the first place? When the devil did say you will have knowledge between good and evil. di ba naging true yun? Bakit mas alam ng devil ano yung instant result? Hindi kaya yung tinutukoy na devil was the real creator?Kasi yung paging mortal ng tao was a choice of god, kung baga consequence lang yun sa action ng man. pero yung sa devil, yun talaga ang mangyari in an instant.

When science reaches its  full potential, di ba meron na rin tayo chance to live forever? It is all about chemistry lang naman yan..

OT. pero napa review ako dito ah!


So why sinabi na yung tree of knowledge will make them die?
The 'die' here has something to do with the spiritual (relationship) condition of Adam & Eve with God. It is not really the eating that made them 'die'. It is the DISOBEDIENCE - a blatant disregard of God. Prior, the couple do not know what sin is. After, they knew they disobeyed! The physical death is just part & parcel of the physical impact of the loss of their 'relational' (spiritual) status before God. [Di ko papatulan dito yung masipag ]


what is the purpose of the tree of life if they are immortal in the first place?
Saka mo na problemahin yan, pag namayapa ka na!


When the devil did say you will have knowledge between good and evil. di ba naging true yun?
Yup!


Bakit mas alam ng devil ano yung instant result?
kasi nangyari na sa kanya yon eh! he was (in eternity future - will be) discharge from the presence of God!


Hindi kaya yung tinutukoy na devil was the real creator?
Nope!


Kasi yung paging mortal ng tao was a choice of god, kung baga consequence lang yun sa action ng man.
Nope. It was man's act - a choice that emanated from the couple - they are free to choose then!


pero yung sa devil, yun talaga ang mangyari in an instant.
Actually, at that time, tapos na yung kay devil - he is dead meat already   - judgement have been made on him in eternity past (can not remember the passage when lucifer and his allies rebeled against God).


When science reaches its  full potential, di ba meron na rin tayo chance to live forever? It is all about chemistry lang naman yan..
The evolution did not state this. The Bible did not state this either.

[Dilbert7]

True. The God in the bible demands blind obedience. But the one they call the devil does not demand it. In fact it was the devil who opened up the eyes of man to enlightenment. In Genesis, if you really tally who was telling the truth and who was not, the devil would be the winner. The explanation of the devil was direct to the point and current. while what God said was only justified later and will happen in the future. For example, when they eat the fruit, they will die, but after eating it was qualified to be die in spirit. the devil said man will not die, and at that instant that they ate the fruit, they did not die. just an example.

> For good reasons - because man are blind to the consequences of his actions while God knew the consequences of such an act!

> for bad reasons - because the devil wants company for his punishment, and to continue showing his defiance of God.

The death occurred immediately - not the physical (which is not the one being referred to). And the pronouncement of a Savior was also made to salvage man after man's admission to the disobedience (yes, in the garden, to Adam & Eve).

[Dilbert7]

This is how Science operates—forming hypotheses and theories around observable and verifiable fact. Then later experiments and observations can invalidate earlier theories so new theories are formed to supplant them, and so on.
But this is where you're mistaken. Evolution is fact—and there is an abundance of proof supporting it. In fact, evolution (micro-) itself has been demonstrated in repeatable experiments.

Gosh, he is really trying VERY HARD!

May I repeat his statement: Evolution THEORY is a FACT! !  

There goes his religion - I told you!

And they have performed repeatable experiments to validate what happened in million, no billion, no trillion years!   I guess they need more money (and more laws) to further the experiments! BEATS ME!

[alistair]

^

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_fact_and_theory


Before I'll listen to you any further, What's your theory?

Do you even have one?

[Tempter]

Sa tuwing napapadaan ako sa thread na to, natatawa ako... 

So sure about everything... 

[sardaukar]

The Clergy Letter - from American Christian clergy
          – An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science

Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible – the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark – convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.

http://www.theclergyletterproject.org/Christian_Clergy/ChrClergyLtr.htm

[Dilbert7]

The Clergy Letter - from American Christian clergy
          – An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science

blah blah blah

http://www.theclergyletterproject.org/Christian_Clergy/ChrClergyLtr.htm

How about their declaration on INQUISITION?

Those pesky political religionists! They need to survive in this world of changing values - just to be relevant!


@alistair, ikaw lang naman ang masyadong nagpu push ng religion mo dito na EVOLUTION is a FACT!

All the rhetoric here will not help prove any of the theories. I have stated in my first post that both (creation & evolution) are theories.

So go down to the scientific evidence - and justify how it proved the theory a fact!

Because if dawkins and his minions ( including Darwin and his religion believers) can not make up their minds as to the cause of life in this world, they still fall short of the scientific presentation that they wanted creationist to present - thus leading them to a difficult situation - ending in uncomfortable position just citing ALIENS as the one that precipitated sperms in the earth before life begins! 

I recommend his fiction books - very intriguing!

[Klaus Weasley]

Those pesky political religionists! They need to survive in this world of changing values - just to be relevant!

It's either that or abandon religion altogether. If religion insists that we do not change, we'd still be believing that the Earth is the center of the universe and women should be 2nd class human beings.

[alistair]

@alistair, ikaw lang naman ang masyadong nagpu push ng religion mo dito na EVOLUTION is a FACT!

You're so confused I wonder how you operate in modern society?

Religion requires faith.

Evolution is a scientific theory, based on observable fact and verifiable experiments. No need for faith.

Do you need faith to believe in the theory of Gravity? I mean, if I don't believe in gravity, will I float off the Earth?

http://www.dbskeptic.com/2008/06/21/macro-evolution-observed-in-the-laboratory/

"We can see moths evolve their coloring to match the color of soot that covers their habitat, watch bacteria evolve antibiotic resistance in hospitals, and my favorite variety of grapefruit was made by scientists who exposed seeds to radiation to increase the mutation rate."

The article goes on to describe how E. coli evolved to be able to thrive on citrate (which are normally toxic to it), through a series of mutations. If mutations is micro-evolution, then an organism acquiring a totally new trait is macro-evolution.

That, and observed speciation like with certain Ring species.

None of the above require faith.

You yourself are free to carefully scrutinize their results and duplicate their experiments or make the same observations as they do.

Now, on the other hand... Christians themselves sometimes disagree whether the 'death' in Gen. 2:17 refers to physical death or spiritual death.

The creation story in Genesis requires faith, and even with faith Genesis can't be taken objectively, nor its premises observed or validated.

All the rhetoric here will not help prove any of the theories. I have stated in my first post that both (creation & evolution) are theories.

You're wrong on the first, and you misunderstand the second.

Scientific "Theory" is different from layman's theory. The layman's theory is a guess, or speculation.

Scientific "Theory" is more like Mathematical Theory—it provides a structured and/or unified model to explain observable fact. We would not have Evolutionary Theory if it weren't for the observable fact that species mutate over time.

Creation as a theory? Now that's not even a guess or speculation. It's a story, a myth that requires faith.

Here's my theory on gravity: tiny invisible winged fairies are pushing down on each one of us keeping us to the ground.

You can't prove they don't exist!

[Dilbert7]

You're so confused I wonder how you operate in modern society?

Religion requires faith.

Indeed! 

That's why it takes a lot of faith to say EVOLUTION is a FACT as you said!

Theory of Gravity - Perhaps you mean Law of Gravity?   


And you have the gall to surpass even Darwin & Dawkins in your declarations of THEORY of EVOLUTIONS as FACT! You are really a fighter for your religion eh!

[Dilbert7]

It's either that or abandon religion altogether. If religion insists that we do not change, we'd still be believing that the Earth is the center of the universe and women should be 2nd class human beings.

Sorry - the manipulators of data to prove their Science can not be a good source of fact! 

[Klaus Weasley]

Sorry - the manipulators of data to prove their Science can not be a good source of fact! 

This is true. But it applies to Creationists more than Evolutionists.

[alistair]

Theory of Gravity - Perhaps you mean Law of Gravity?   

What is this Law of Gravity that you speak of? Newton's? Even Newton's "Law" is considered a theory.

Troll harder.

And you have the gall to surpass even Darwin & Dawkins in your declarations of THEORY of EVOLUTIONS as FACT! You are really a fighter for your religion eh!

And you're just trolling with nothing substantial to say.

What's your theory?

How old is the Earth? Do you have any experiments or evidence for it, or just a few Bible verses?

Where did the dinosaur fossils come from, and how old are they? Do you have any evidence for them, or just a few Bible verses interpreted liberally?

[leomarley]

Indeed! 

That's why it takes a lot of faith to say EVOLUTION is a FACT as you said!

Theory of Gravity - Perhaps you mean Law of Gravity?   


And you have the gall to surpass even Darwin & Dawkins in your declarations of THEORY of EVOLUTIONS as FACT! You are really a fighter for your religion eh!

sumakit ulo ko dito.

[sharkey360]

It makes me laugh that a creationism/religious believer believes that dinosaurs NEVER existed and the only explanation why dinosaur fossils are scattered around the world was because God placed them to test people's faith in him.

[indie boi]

It makes me laugh that a creationism/religious believer believes that dinosaurs NEVER existed and the only explanation why dinosaur fossils are scattered around the world was because God placed them to test people's faith in him.

Actually, there were posts made before about dinosaurs being mentioned in the bible. I still laugh thinking about those. Fun times!

[Dilbert7]

It makes me laugh that a creationism/religious believer believes that dinosaurs NEVER existed and the only explanation why dinosaur fossils are scattered around the world was because God placed them to test people's faith in him.

Then tell that to those who did not believe dinosaur existed  - what is evolution there?

[leomarley]

What is this Law of Gravity that you speak of? Newton's? Even Newton's "Law" is considered a theory.

Troll harder.And you're just trolling with nothing substantial to say.

OT

This is true. Newton's Law of Gravity can either be a Scientific Law or Theory. This happened when one physics genius' theory clashed with Newton's Law of Gravity. In Newton's model, he concluded that if the Sun would somehow disappear the Earth would spin out orbit instantaneously. One physicist has proven that this was wrong due to the relative effect of space-time to light and this particular physicist found out that the speed of the effect of gravity is equal to the speed of light. The Sun's light travels to Earth at exactly 8mins and 19 sec and therefore the Earth would spin out of orbit also at exactly the same time.

The theory that proved Newton's 200 year old theory was wrong is the Theory of Relativity, and the guess who the author is... that's right, Albert Einstein.

[sharkey360]

[sharkey360]

Science Defeats Creationism In Oklahoma In Flawless Victory



Three anti-science bills that would have severely set back the education of students in Oklahoma died quietly last week when the legislative session came to an end.

Among the bills that were killed includes:

SB 1742, which would have allowed teachers to challenge evolution using the Biblical theory known as creationism.

HB 1551 died previously in early April. That bill amounted to a full-fledged attack on climate change and evolution. Republican state Rep. Steve Russell attempted to amend an unrelated education bill, called HB 2341, to include the anti-science language of HB 1551 but that also failed.

With the end of the legislative session, all of these efforts to force creationism into science classrooms have been defeated meaning science has once again prevailed in another Republican dominated state. Earlier this month, science scored victories over creationism in Missouri and Alabama.

With these victories, Republican attempts to replace science with religion have been thwarted for the time being. Educators and scientists across the nation have been fighting in defense of science and the education of our kids for months, and now they have big wins in three different states. Science and fact once again reigns supreme.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/27/science-defeats-creationism-in-oklahoma-in-flawless-victory/

[tigkal]

Gosh, he is really trying VERY HARD!

May I repeat his statement: Evolution THEORY is a FACT! !  

There goes his religion - I told you!

And they have performed repeatable experiments to validate what happened in million, no billion, no trillion years!   I guess they need more money (and more laws) to further the experiments! BEATS ME!

Evolution can now be replicated on a laboratory. A simple tweak on the dna can change the beak of a bird in Galapagos Island. That is how evolution starts. However they also discovered a master gene that decides what can evolve and what cannot. Read it in NY Times years back.

[Quitacet]

Evolution can now be replicated on a laboratory. A simple tweak on the dna can change the beak of a bird in Galapagos Island. That is how evolution starts. However they also discovered a master gene that decides what can evolve and what cannot. Read it in NY Times years back.

In the NatGeo magazine published a year ago, a tweak on the dna of a Ray would determine/change the shape and size of its fins.

some people would believe scientific experiments more than a talking snake.

[dpogs]

hmmm...

napansin niyo ba na sa mga experiment na yan hindi ipinapakita ang evolution diyan... evolution as what others says take time (hmmm billion of times) and natures do it.....

samantalang sa mga experiement na yan... there is an intervention of scientist... they manipulated DNA... someone who have intelligence alter the DNA para gawin ang isang bagay sa kung ano gusto niya lumabas... and take note hindi nangyari yang experiement na yan ng billion of years...

honestly speaking... can evolution be repeated in a laboratory room?